ProggyMan

Seriously? People, I'm not saying Israel deserves your sympathy, or is 'right', or hasn't committed atrocities, but how can you support terrorists who kill innocent civilians? Just because your against Israel doesn't mean you should condone the actions of an organization devoted to killing innocent civilians.

spark10036

if the palestinians had any other way to react except from suicide bombings I would be cheering for them

maybe I put this down the wrong way...I mean if they reacted in other ways than suicide bombings. I'm against them, cause except from usually killing other innocent people, you actually kill yourself, which is not smart actually...die in battle, that's noble, but blowing yourself up with the hope that you take others with you, that's stupid imo. and ProggyMan, I would like to believe I'm educated in this matters cause I actually live in the middle-east, and what ever happens Gaza effects my country as well. if there is one thing I strongly believe, is that apathy, equals tolerance and tolerance to evil means guilt, and I honestly believe that their are politicians in Israel which are evil. also I believe is a crime against the arabs of Palestine that they were forced to give half of their country in the first place to the jews of europe, just because their was an ancient story, which might be true that they used to live there, and it's also a crime that the jewish for the last 50 years have been trying to get the other half as well. what's next the greeks will claim turkey cause up until 1500s it used to be a part of greece? I live in Cyprus which is divited since 1974 so I'll tell you, situations like this suck, and it sucks even more when every once in a while you are threatened with war. Palestinians have my sympathy because I believe in their struggle and their claim, and I feel that the ones who don't want peace are the israelis.

and now I'm quoting hamas' officials:

"Our conflict with you is not religious but political. We have no problem with Jews who have not attacked us — our problem is with those who came to our land, imposed themselves on us by force, destroyed our society and banished our people."

"The Hamas movement is prepared to stop terror against Israeli civilians if Israel stops killing Palestinian civilians ... We have told (Palestinian Authority Prime Minister) Abu Mazen in our meetings that there is an opportunity to stop targeting Israeli civilians if the Israelis stop assassinations and raids and stop brutalizing Palestinian civilians."

"Our message to the Israelis is this: We do not fight you because you belong to a certain faith or culture. Jews have lived in the Muslim world for 13 centuries in peace and harmony; they are in our religion "the people of the book" who have a covenant from God and his messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him), to be respected and protected."

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ProggyMan

So you support the killing of innocent Israeli? I'm not sure what you're saying here.

Fair enough, that was speculation on my part.

What are you saying? The Israeli civilians should be killed because they don't go up in armed rebellion?

The original plan was just and fair, the refugees from the Holocaust needed a home and there was room in Israel. There were other motives for creating a state of Israel besides ancient fairy tales. From the moment Israel became a country it has been under attack, I don't see how you can simply say the Israeli's are the ones who don't want peace. Like I said before, there are religuous fundamentalists on both sides who won't rest until the 'Holy Land' is free of 'infidels'. Both sides are at fault, and the only ones who deserve your sympathy are the innocent civilians caught in the middle.

If this was true of evryone on both sides then there would be no conflict. Sadly that will likely never be the case.

spark10036

I like political debates, and I appreciate when person your age has certain believes and speaks his mind. anw I'm not that old myself, I'm 24 actually. the only think I would like to state right now, cause its 430 AM here (got to wake up early tomorrow), is that I don't support the killing of innocent people no matter religion or ethnicity, and that no israelis shouldn't be killed cause they don't rebel against their government, but they should do something, cause they are many, especially young people, who are against this decisions, and they should finally speak their mind. maybe this will not change anything, but why not giving it a shot?


p.s. about the signature, Im not a terrorist, I just love that movie!!!

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ProggyMan

I know you don't think innocent civilians should be slaughtered, I was just grilling you. They do. But the older generation still remembers the many wars fought with the surrounding Arab countries and feel that any type of concession is a sign of weakness. This is what I meant by informing yourself about Israeli politics. Bush winning twice doesn't mean all Americans have southern drawls and sit around drinking beer and counting their 11 toes all day, same with Israel.

MoonlitSunshine

I have to say, up until today I was firmly on the side of the palestinians: they had been evicted from their land and treated like crap since the Israelis "Returned" to Israel, but having talked the whole thing through with a friend from Israel today, and having heard his side of things, I feel quite stupid for having thought that for so long.

To be honest, it now seems to me that both sides are reacting to the other: it's impossible to tell who "started" it, seeing as the whole thing didn't erupt at once: Yes, israel seized some land from the palestinians, but in many other cases Israelis legally bought the land fairly, and they were still attacked and harassed by the "poor defenceless" Palestinians. the whole place is a mess, and both sides are reacting to violence with more violence. What would you do if you felt that your land was being taken from you?

On the other hand, what would you do if raving madmen were threatening to fire rockets and blow up your families? it's not an easy thing to sit down and talk calmly about.

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"I found it eventually, at the bottom of a locker in a disused laboratory, with a sign on the door saying "Beware of the Leopard". Ever thought of going into Advertising?"

- Arthur Dent

ProggyMan

Yeah, I just want to say I'm pleasantly surprised how the thread has gone, 3 pages and everything has been constructive.

MoonlitSunshine

indeed, the other thread I saw about this today had started off with the words "All Zionists are Butchers". Needless to say, it all went downhill from there...

I actually feel more sorry for the israeli citizens than their "enemies" at the moment, the civilians of the "terrorist" areas get a lot of sympathy from the world, but the common israelis have to put up with the fact that that they are almost universally hated for what their country is doing, in many cases is being forced to do as a result of the attacks against them, not all of which were even instigated by them.

It must be even worse for those of them who lived through the second world war, and are seeing their own country commit the atrocious bullying and slaughter that they themselves had to live through not so long ago.

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"I found it eventually, at the bottom of a locker in a disused laboratory, with a sign on the door saying "Beware of the Leopard". Ever thought of going into Advertising?"

- Arthur Dent

Comus

I'm through believing that any Israeli can be regarded as an innocent civilian.

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ProggyMan

Care to say why?