Anteater

Lmao. I am indeed a Christian (though I don't think you have the correct definition in the first place), but that has nothing to do with believing that I was born with a purpose. PEOPLE give meaning to their lives by living them; a higher deity only serves as a potential tool to motivate one to strive higher than their bodily confines allow them to go. Whether or not there is any reasoning to the creation of life in regards to this is completely and utterly irrelevant.

So give me a break here Ethan. Just because you can't see the link between an ideal being's existence and the quest for a living organism to find something more for itself than merely being here and moving in circles on every level of thought and action since the dawn of conciousness doesn't mean that its something others cannot see and reason for themselves.

Possibility is and has always been the only real reason for a human to try existing beyond insatible instincts which constantly need stimulation, because without something that goes above the inevitability of life and death the whole experience of living loses those colors that make it fun and vibrant. Hence, I see nothing wrong with trying to reach higher than what my paltry senses are able to perceive.

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sleepy jack

I'd define a Christian the same as the bible would: someone who believes they've found salvation in God. I don't understand how me saying you're a christian and assuming you believe in a higher power with an interest in you contradicts that definition...

I don't understand how a god who created us by accident and doesn't care about our existence is any different than an indifferent universe. You said you choose to believe it was a god because it gives you something to strive for; an indifferent universe gives you nothing but if you were just some sort of celestial sneeze that the means nothing to a god how is that any different then the indifferent universe? I think whether or not the god has an interest in the human race makes all the difference in the world and is completely relevant to having something to strive for. Can you explain how it's "completely and utterly irrelevant?"

I'm not trying to do away with your sense of purpose. I'm just curious about it because it doesn't make much sense to me, it strikes me as more hopeful than reasonable. The only times I really stop respecting someone's beliefs is when they start enforcing it on others. Though I don't think a sense of respect implies any sort of acceptance; not all ideas are equal. I can respect a Christian's beliefs but in my understanding of history and how the world operates I'm certain they're making a mistake. Also just because I'm skeptical doesn't mean I don't feel like I have a purpose. Don't get me wrong; I don't have a theistic purpose or any motivation to be "moral" and I believe an afterlife is completely impossible. I still strive to be an intelligent and good person though and I have dreams for what I want to do with my life. They're just not of god or existing outside of my body once it stops; they're of being happy.

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Anteater

Hmn. Okay, I'll explain why I think your definition is slightly off. Judaists are the ones who believe in salvation through an unscrupulous God; Christians are those who seek salvation in Heaven through the words of Jesus (the son), and who furthermore believe that he died so that human beings could get to this Heaven by acknowleding his identity and methods rather instead of what the rabbi at the local temple would tell you to do. It's a more conveniant path to something that people were once told you had to do a whole lotta **** for. I mean c'mon, what's easier here, taking a goat up on a mountain and slitting its throat, or thanking a 2000-year old dead guy for dying on a Roman cross?

Second, it doesn't matter if the indifferent God created you, can give you things, etc because the very fact that something eternal, powerful, and bodiless exists outside of you is pretty darn incredible. After all, there's quite a lot to learn simply by observing such an entity, assuming a time comes when we could ever see this hypothetical God in action. Learning and seeking are the same as striving towards something new. (And in regards of why a God is important even if It's indifferent: I guess its kinda like wanting to be like your parents even if they don't care what you choose to do with your life. I'm tired so it's difficult to explain well.)

Basically, my faith and my mind are on two different wavelengths here. I like to think and postulate and wonder about the possibilities of stuff, while at the same time maintaining a faith in the optimism of the God I hope exists. Neither my irrational beliefs or mental ponderings interfere with one-another or influence my life in negative ways, so what's the problem with it?

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sleepy jack

I know that but I just said god because the bible teaches that god and his son are one.

Not to nitpick, but aside from the eternal thing (and even god had to have had a beginning but you presented the same argument for a universe existing instead of a higher power but please please please let's not get into this discussion because its an obvious and giant circle a universe is bodiless and powerful and immortal. So I think we can agree, a higher power and the universe are equally incredible things.


Here's what I'm getting at though...if the god is indifferent and you just die, no heaven, no floating around in space, you just die, then how would that god be any different to you than an indifferent universe which would do no more for you? Your christian idea of a god, okay, he gives you heaven, I can understand the purpose there but saying any form of god would give humanity a purpose, I feel, is flawed.

I don't have really have a problem with it...I just don't understand how your mental pondering could be complimentary or totally seperate from your idea of god.

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Sneer

I have to say im at a loss to explain my beliefs on this subject. The reasons for this are, on the one hand i'm an atheist and completely reject Christianity and the idea of a heaven and hell, i dont believe in a 'soul' either. On the other hand, i have experienced certain things, one could say paranormal events, in my life that are unexplainable, and believe me i've thought of all possible explanaitions.

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cardboard adolescent

tell me more tell me more

Sneer

*I swear on my life this is all true

Well it all centred in my old house, specifically my room (always good...), i'd been living there since i was 4 months old and experienced nothing to my knowledge until i was around 17.

My cat had been acting strangely a couple of days before it started happening, one night we heard it screetching and hissing, went upstairs to see what wa wrong and we found her hiding behind my mums bed trembling hardcore.

Then a couple of days later it was just me and my sister, we were both downstairs watching TV when suddenly i heard an almighty crash from my bedroom. I ran upstairs not knowing what to expect and found my tv pretty much in bits on my bedroom floor. What was inexplicable about this was that my TV was on a shelving unit secured to the wall by 7 inch nails - the shelf was completely intact so the only way it could of fallen was by being pushed off. Yet my sister was the only other person in and she was in the same room as me.

The very next day i came home to an empty house and found my wardrobe had been pushed over onto my bed, now my wardrobe is pretty big, nobody in my house (i lived with 3 women, me dad was hardly there) wouldnt of been able to move it plus why the hell would they?!

Later on that night i AGAIN heard a crash, this time my mum ran up with a golf club bless her and found my bottom rung on the bookshelf had been smashed - like somebody had dropped a heavy object on it. There was hardly any books on it so it couldnt of been the weight.

Nothing else happened for a few days and then i went on holiday to Ibiza with my mates for my 18th. While i was gone my um had a huge argument with my dad and consequently slept in my room for the night. She was awoken in the early hours by what she thought was somebody whispering to her, she focused her eyes and saw a silhouette standing by my wardrobe looking at her in bed. She thought it was my dad and told him where to go but it just stood there silent before just seemingly disappearing. She was ****ting it and never went back in my room.

I came home after a week and all was ok for a few days after. Then one night i was trying to get to sleep when i suddenly felt my mattress sloop down as if somebody was sitting on it, i shot up and turned my light on but there was nobody there - yet there was a clear indent on my mattress where somebody had been sitting.

After that nothing happened for months. Then one eve in janurary i think a couple of mates were over before we went to a gig, it was a free house so we went over the road to get alcohol. Upon returning, me and one of the guys were ahead of the others and i took out my keys to unlock the door. As i went to put my hand on the door handle it suddenly shook violently like somebody was trying to open it from the otherside. We recoiled away in horror thinking there was a burgler, then, armed with bottles of beer, we stormed in and searched the place. Absolutely nothing. The dogs were in their basket happy as larry (and no, they were far too small to reach the handle, even by jumping up) and the place was spotlessly tidy and kept. No sign of anything.

Yet perhaps the scariest occurence was two nights before we moved out, my big sister ws down for a visit and we were all in the kitchen eating dinner when suddenly she shrieked and dropped her fork in her food. Everybody was asking what was wrong... it turns out as she was eating she had seen a dark haired boy peering around the bannister watching her as she ate. She said his eyes were undescribably hollow and dark and that he ran back up stairs when she saw him.

So i know something exists... i just do know how or why.

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cardboard adolescent

freaky. i'm not sure what i would think in your position either.

Kurt_Cobain

[quote=sleepy jack;567323]I don't believe there is any possible way any afterlife can exist. I think everyone here can agree that we experience the world without brain; which stops working when we die. So even if some subatomic matter (like your "soul") there will be no way to experience it because the thing that is "you (your brain)" is dead.

What Dreams May Come:
Albert: So what is the "me"?
Chris Nielsen: My brain I suppose.
Albert: Your brain ? Your brain is a body part. Like your fingernail or your heart. Why is that the part that's you?
Chris Nielsen: Because I have sort of a voice in my head, the part of me that thinks, that feels, that is aware that I exist at all.
Albert: So if you're aware you exist, then you do. That's why you're still here.

I think there must be something out there. To believe that a millenia of implosion, explosion and mass collision can create a mind capable of art, poetry, different languages, a sunset, is just a tad too much for me. It must've taken something with a little more imagination

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anticipation

prelife is so much more interesting than the afterlife.