cardboard adolescent

That's my whole point: without a grounding principle like God all morality dissolves into relativism. That's why we need religion, and that's also why once we move past religion the question of murder becomes a serious problem.

Yes. I don't think most people understand their own morality, and that our conclusion that murder is wrong is based mostly on our situation, and that those in different situations will probably not reach the same conclusion.

Well, that's the Americanized perspective of the situation. Others would argue that this so-called religious extremism is a logical reaction to American secularization, in which values, as I have been arguing, tend to break down.

The Unfan

I agree that it creates a situation of moral relativism, however I find religion only makes it worse. Religion gives incentive for violence. Secularism gives no incentives what so ever. The majority of people have a biological understanding of procreation and longevity. Therefor murder is relatively bad for society. Hence the necessity of law.

Son of JayJamJah

All humans know they will die one day, that's not debatable I don't think.

Yikes, no we don't.

I've been an atheist for 30+ years

Yet to throw a punch let alone murder someone.

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Me, Myself and I United as One

If you're posting in the music forums make sure to be thoughtful and expressive, if you're posting in the lounge ask yourself "is this something that adds to the conversation?" It's important to remember that a lot of people use each thread. You're probably not as funny or clever as you think, I know I'm not.

My Van Morrison Discography Thread

cardboard adolescent

What's debatable is what it means to die, and whether it is something to be feared, or even avoided for that matter. The question of suicide is entangled in the question of murder.

Son of JayJamJah

Everything your body and mind do (when healthy) is geared at keeping you alive, so I'd say death is something to avoid for as long as naturally reasonable.

I agree the idea of what death means is debatable, but that's not mortality.

Four Questions:

If you polled 1 million people and asked them if they want to die tomorrow how many say yes?

Here's how I win this argument with you if that was the point of this conversation: Do you want to die? Do you think murder is wrong? Do you have any doubt about either of your answers?

__________________
Me, Myself and I United as One

If you're posting in the music forums make sure to be thoughtful and expressive, if you're posting in the lounge ask yourself "is this something that adds to the conversation?" It's important to remember that a lot of people use each thread. You're probably not as funny or clever as you think, I know I'm not.

My Van Morrison Discography Thread

sleepy jack

I don't think it's a reaction I just think now we know about it. The middle east has always been the middle east; they weren't sitting around in circles talking about Allah and playing cards fifty years ago. I think the idea that our secularism is what causes them to act the way they do is just absurd.

I think the real problem is religious fanatics who want to be in control of Jerusalem and who hate our friendship with Israel which doesn't help their situation. If we didn't care about Israel and left them out to fend for themselves do you think they'd still be angry with us and Ahmadinejad would be saying "death to america!" because we have panty commercials? We're not the most free country and there's far more secular countries than us but we're the ones who would jump through hoops for Israel, not Holland.

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Astronomer

Is death the death of your body or mind? What if somebody was completely brain dead, but their body was working perfectly? Would that be death?

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Son of JayJamJah

Whole other thread; Google Terry Schiavo.

__________________
Me, Myself and I United as One

If you're posting in the music forums make sure to be thoughtful and expressive, if you're posting in the lounge ask yourself "is this something that adds to the conversation?" It's important to remember that a lot of people use each thread. You're probably not as funny or clever as you think, I know I'm not.

My Van Morrison Discography Thread

cardboard adolescent

people fear what they don't understand, that much is obvious.

you say you're an atheist, but you must still have faith in something. i would assume that you put your stock in reason--after all, you seem like a very reasonable person. but how can you justify reason? what makes truth true? in that case truth has to become the measure of itself, the divine principle which has replaced God. i basically see the worship of reason as a new religion.

The Unfan

How are you defining faith? I typically think of faith as irrational belief. However, it is possible that we're using it to mean entirely different things which would make replying to this awkward.