Morality and the Bible (alternative, member, quote, band, Lute)

cardboard adolescent · 12-02-2008, 08:23 PM

Because empathy is just an inclination, just like passion and hatred are inclinations that can quickly overwhelm it. Morality is meaningless if it is based on inclinations, since morality should be able to lead someone to overcome their inclinations.

kaleidoscope.. · 12-02-2008, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

You're doing the same thing again. You claim that "empathy is not a good enough basis" without providing your reasoning for making that claim. Obviously, since I have proposed the idea that empathy does make for a good foundation, I disagree with your claim. I'm not going to simply start agreeing with you simply because you assert that "empathy is not a good enough basis". You need to back that up with a reason why you think that if you want to attempt to convince me that your position is correct.

Good point...i did realize this once i read my post again

if you didnt read the end of my post it said that morality cant be morality if it keeps changing and since empathy is something that can change and is something that is different in every person then how can emapthy be a basis for morality??

streetwaves · 12-02-2008, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaleidoscope..

Good point...i did realize this once i read my post again

if you didnt read the end of my post it said that morality cant be morality if it keeps changing and since empathy is something that can change and is something that is different in every person then how can emapthy be a basis for morality??

Where do you get these ideas? Why can't morality be morality if it continues to change?

**Janszoon** · 12-02-2008, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardboard adolescent

Because empathy is just an inclination, just like passion and hatred are inclinations that can quickly overwhelm it. Morality is meaningless if it is based on inclinations, since morality should be able to lead someone to overcome their inclinations.

Empathy does lead people to overcome their inclinations, that's the point. I may want a hundred dollars, but empathy is what prevents me from taking it out of your wallet. Empathy is at the root of the golden rule and in some form or another the golden rule is the cornerstone of all of human civilization.

cardboard adolescent · 12-02-2008, 08:37 PM

just because the one inclination is stronger than the other. but once the inclination to steal becomes stronger than the inclination to be "good", like if you were starving, it ceases to guide your actions. the only way empathy can continue to guide your actions even when your other inclinations overwhelm it is to give it a higher significance, and this is only possible by relating it to an outside influence.

streetwaves · 12-02-2008, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardboard adolescent

just because the one inclination is stronger than the other. but once the inclination to steal becomes stronger than the inclination to be "good", like if you were starving, it ceases to guide your actions. the only way empathy can continue to guide your actions even when your other inclinations overwhelm it is to give it a higher significance, and this is only possible by relating it to an outside influence.

Just as the inclination to obey God would cease to guide your actions as soon as the inclination to steal became stronger. Sure, there are some that would rather die than disobey God, but there are degrees to every inclination.

**Janszoon** · 12-02-2008, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaleidoscope..

if you didnt read the end of my post it said that morality cant be morality if it keeps changing and since empathy is something that can change and is something that is different in every person then how can emapthy be a basis for morality??

Why can't morality be morality if it keeps changing? You are beginning with the assumption that morality is an absolute, but I disagree with that assumption. In fact, that's partially what we're debating about here. And without agreement on that assumption the rest of the argument doesn't hold up.

streetwaves · 12-02-2008, 08:44 PM

Exactly. Why would we pay attention to your argument if we disagree with the very beginnings of it, and you've done nothing to persuade us? Morality is not an absolute, and thus does not cause it to cease to exist.

cardboard adolescent · 12-02-2008, 08:45 PM

if you think about all human behavior in terms of inclinations, then right and wrong are absolutely meaningless. basically it's a refutation of free will, and without free will morality crumbles.

i personally have no problem with that. i'm just trying to point out that if you do have a problem with that, which most people seem to, you need to bring God into the picture, and God has to be considered as an absolute by which any sort of measurement gains meaning.

streetwaves · 12-02-2008, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardboard adolescent

if you think about all human behavior in terms of inclinations, then right and wrong are absolutely meaningless. i personally have no problem with that. i'm just trying to point out that if you do have a problem with that, which most people seem to, you need to bring God into the picture, and God has to be considered as an absolute by which any sort of measurement gains meaning.

I disagree. Right and wrong are relative to situations, and if a situation arises in which I am more inclined to ignore right and wrong, I will (this would most likely be a means of self-defense in one way or another). But in everyday life, I am more inclined to respect my morality than primitive impulses.

12-02-2008, 08:44 PM	#108 (permalink)
streetwaves Music Addict Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 267	Exactly. Why would we pay attention to your argument if we disagree with the very beginnings of it, and you've done nothing to persuade us? Morality is not an absolute, and thus does not cause it to cease to exist. __________________ rateyourmusic

12-02-2008, 08:23 PM	#101 (permalink)
cardboard adolescent ;) Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: CA Posts: 3,503	Because empathy is just an inclination, just like passion and hatred are inclinations that can quickly overwhelm it. Morality is meaningless if it is based on inclinations, since morality should be able to lead someone to overcome their inclinations.

12-02-2008, 08:37 PM	#105 (permalink)
cardboard adolescent ;) Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: CA Posts: 3,503	just because the one inclination is stronger than the other. but once the inclination to steal becomes stronger than the inclination to be "good", like if you were starving, it ceases to guide your actions. the only way empathy can continue to guide your actions even when your other inclinations overwhelm it is to give it a higher significance, and this is only possible by relating it to an outside influence.

12-02-2008, 08:45 PM	#109 (permalink)
cardboard adolescent ;) Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: CA Posts: 3,503	if you think about all human behavior in terms of inclinations, then right and wrong are absolutely meaningless. basically it's a refutation of free will, and without free will morality crumbles. i personally have no problem with that. i'm just trying to point out that if you do have a problem with that, which most people seem to, you need to bring God into the picture, and God has to be considered as an absolute by which any sort of measurement gains meaning.