Oh yay, another political thread! (Prop 8, gay marriage stuff)
 

So I needed to get this off my chest as its been bugging me. I do not understand what argument any people or persons of religious faith can form for the banning of gay marriage. As per the first amendment the state is forced to look at marriage as either being a religious right or a civic right. If it is indeed a religious right than the state can not be involved nor make laws pertaining to who can and can't wed. Its simply unconstitutional. On the other hand if it is a civic right than the state can not recognize the religiousity of it and has to let everyone do it, strictly prohibit it, or claim no involvement with it anyway. How then is it legally possible to ban *** marriage?

Furthermore, unbanning gay marriage would result in a booming market for tuxedos, cakes, dresses, and all that other good stuff. It would be economically beneficial to stop prop 8. Even if you don't want gays to get married you should be against prop 8 for your own good.

great explanation.
Conservatives are afraid of change basically.
HAven't they already passed proposition 8?

It really pissed me off how all the ads promoting prop 8 tried to frame the issue as something other than the stripping away of gay rights.

Yes, but people are still trying to fight it, as they should. In fact, there is a nation wide rally today.For info.

Exactly. There is no real argument for the pro-8 people. It's based totally on religious ideals, and ignores the Constitution in favor of the Bible. The rest of their argument is based on fear and lies.

It's absurd. Anyone who voted for Prop 8 should be ashamed of themselves.

You summed it up perfect Unfan, it's completely unconstitutional and un-American.

It's a lot like the 60's when public segregation was finally discontinued.

In 20 years (hopefully less) we'll all look back at this and think...really...we voted to stop gays from marrying.

Well said, Unfan.
It's completely ridiculous. While I was picketing last week all the "Yes" people were holding signs that said "Yes on 8 = Less Government," "Yes on 8 = Better Education," and "Yes on 8 = Freedom of Speech."
Seriously? That doesn't even make sense.
I can't wrap my head around the ignorance and discrimination people display. It's sickening. It's... wrong.

Bleh. Its understandable that homosexuals would want in on marriage, but seems sorta pointless to me. Marriage (the Western world concept of it anyway) is rooted in a religion that doesn't look kindly upon same-sex coupling to begin with, so...yeah.

We'd all be better off just steering clear of this Prop 8 **** in any case. = /

"Yes on 8 = Less Government"? Those people are crazy. How does adding a new amendment to the state constitution, effectively creating a new law, equal less government? Frigging bigots can't even form a coherent thought.

I know, right?

This makes me depressed. How the fuck did something like that pass in California?

I don't get it either.

I keep thinking we're over it as a nation and then this.

Are people stupid or evil? What's the percentages? 80% stupid 20% evil...

I don't know about where you live, but in Australia marriage grants you a lot of advantages when it comes to owning and renting accommodation, government payments, co-owning bank accounts, etc. A *** couple would have less luck with this stuff than a straight couple would. And this is why homosexual couples wish to be able to marry. It's not pointless.

^ Exactly.

California does have the institution of domestic partnerships, which has grown to include most rights given by the state to marriages. Unfortunately, due to the Defense of marriage act, certain very important rights on a federal level (like tax breaks and sponsoring the immigration of a partner) are denied same sex couples, not to mention that the rights given in California do not have to be recognized in any other state. :\

Just a couple things, Unfan, that I want to point out so you can refine your questions here;

1. Theres no actual law regulating the seperation of church and state. Unless its a state law, what we think of as a constitutional ban is mere suggestions in open letter (as I recall) from Thomas Jefferson. Its a precedent that we see as American.

2. You can't rationalize. Theres no religious or legal conviction here. These people hate ***s. That the end of the position. They hate ***s and they can hide behind two lines in Leviticus. Seperate but equal was a dismissed notion in the 60's. People didn't vote no on Prop 8 because they thought there was something logically wrong with it, there hate-filled people who we should have outright rebellion against.

3. We have a show here on Sunday nights called "1-in-10" which clearly discusses issues facing the GLBT community and they had this (paraphrased) comment last week:

"You know these protests are starting now, and these Mormons used a lot of incorrect information to mobalize your vote but, you know, with 32% voter turn out, where were you? The people that stayed home, this is where we see a larger issue"

I don't know the city they mentioned but its irrelevent. You can't take for granted that people will do the right thing. If you're upset that things didn't turn out the way you'd wanted, you should look inward.

By the by, you can listen to 1-in-10 web-wide here (its on right now): FNX Radio | Home

The letter from Thomas Jefferson you're talking about is referencing the First Amendment, which essentially is meant to establish a separation of church and state.

Both of you are correct.

It is implied but never actual mentioned word for word.

I'm from the bloody bay area and I have kids in my school chanting '**** the homos' in the hallways. It's mainly the Latino and Black vote though, I guess those groups tend to be more religous.

Sounds religious, at any rate. =/

Yeh, my bad...

There got to be something wrong with your country : why on earth does religion has anything to do with politic in USA ? o_o

In France, bigots shut their f*cking goddamned faces, and that's way better !
(In fact, the biggest part of French people are atheist)

A large amount of Americans are religious, a large amount of religions have politics in mind.

That may be true, but you still didn't legalize same sex marriage...;)

ht-tp://en.wikipedia(dot)org/wiki/Homosexuality#Sexual_behavior
As you can see in the map, *** marriage isn't allowed in France, but there is a *** union, and contrary to USA, in the entire country.
Our problem is that the word "mariage" (I bet you'll understand the meaning) means litterally "union of people of opposite sexes", so "*** marriage" is a oxymoron, and is, basically, impossible.
(that's the argument of a large amount of french people)
Plus french peoples are a little bit... uptight with those things. Especially peoples over 50 years old (a half of the french population, basically)

That's what i though the first time I heard "god bless america", and the first time I saw an american dollar ("in god we trust")

edit : Wtf, why is the word "g-a-y" hidden ? o_o

That's because France isn't a federation...;)
Um, I believe that's the argument everyone is making against it.
So you're just as bigoted as Americans then...:D

That's absurd. In France people are much more bigoted. When I visited I was refused service twice because I was American.

Yeah but "meant to" and "did" are different animals.

Are you serious? Where and what exactly happened?

Yeah I'm not sure where this came from. First of all, being an aetheist generally means that you're far more biggoted toward religious people than religious people are toward aethists.

Secondly, The Germans and the French regularly have editorial pieces arguing what makes someone "French" or "German" and you can bet that a good majority outline an agenda that prevents Turks and middle easterners from being included.

Are you really suprised by this? One of bosses was refused cab service in England because he was American for christs sake.

Actually I am, yes. Europe has pretty extensive anti-discrimination laws. But even if this did happen, I wouldn't draw a conclusion on the level of xenophobia of an entire nation based on anecdotal evidence...:\

I would draw a conclusion on xenophobic hysteria by looking at your posts from 2 to 3 years ago.

But then again, i tend to be overdramatic.

Are you sure it was that.

Maybe he wanted to go south of the river.

Not sure, I think it was more of an extra. he also mentioned the distance was too short to warrant the trip, but threw in "and you're an american" which I laughed at, because the guy voted for Bush, so it was warranted.

They are bigoted people everywhere to suggest America has a higher percentage then any other nation is just a guess and based on reputation one with a low likelihood of being accurate.

Big3; I'll disagree with one thing you said Strongly.

I don't believe "being an aetheist generally means that you're far more biggoted toward religious people than religious people are toward aethists"

I think it's quite the opposite. But at least a push. Most of my fellow atheists, at least those I know, are quite apathetic when it comes to peoples choice of religion\spirituality. Fox example my Wife is a Lutheran and even though her parents always knew I didn't go to church, we never told them I was an atheist. She felt it would have upset them.

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q...makessense.jpg

^^^^^^^^^^This is why (these type of) Religious people don't understand Atheists and why the loud Atheists of today i.e. Dawkins, Hitchens etc. are so fed up.

The truth is about Atheism is that it's skepticism really. It's investigation and humility and the willingness to just not know.

That poster suggests Atheists believe in nothing and that everything just happened magically. But really it's a matter of not knowing and not just going with some made up bullshit theology that comes from a book that promotes Racism, Murder, Condemnation, Sexism and Prejudice (All western religions here).

(This part not to you Big3, but just to bring it back round.)

It's a choice just like marriage, gay or straight, is a choice. A choice made by one human to marry another and it's none of anyone else's god damn business but theirs. To differentiate from who gets to make that choice shows a complete disregard for the positive message of equality and compassion for your fellow man that modern religion prides itself on teaching. Here in lies the hypocrisy of religion, the culprit behind the majority of modern discrimination.

I wouldn't call myself xenophobic, just critical of certain aspects of your culture.

Aethism, like Christianity, has strong lines drawn between what the title means literally, and the actions of those who self-identify as such.

To put it bluntly, fake aethists hate fake religious people.

if a literal aethist were to encounter a literal christian (for the sake of argument), they likely wouldn't find much disagreement.

An aethist doubtful, and a christian humble with the knowledge that their belief system is not very logical.

But this isn't what we see in reality and the self-identified Aethiests like Bill Mahr go make movies about how dumb religious people actually are.

Their biggoted. Your belief in religion has always been a private thing, regardless of what it was. You bring it outside to make it a political issue and to segregate.

I understand them being fed up, but you either sink to a level or stand on principle. I read Hitchens book at least, and his points are valid, but the bredth of aethiests aren't as civil.

I guess I don't see why atheists need to approach something with civility that is one of the main causes of hatred, division, and violence in the world. Especially when many people still want to have religion taught over what we know to be truth.

Not all Christians fall into that Bible-Belt BS that many stereotype them to be, just as not all atheists are simple-minded, apathetic wannabe scientists who cannot see beyond the ends of their own noses. But I think this thread is getting off topic now...

streetwaves: what you consider truth may in fact be mere delusion. The same can be said of all systems of belief and thought.

Bill Mahr is not a self-identified atheist, he's a self-identified agnostic or apatheist depending on which interview you listen to.