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Son of JayJamJah 12-20-2008 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anteater (Post 567044)
You missed my point entirelly. I didn't say I supported the Bible or that the tome promoted logical thought now did I? I'm simply saying that people will discriminate and do awful things to one-another even if it isn't fueled by some kind of theistic/polytheistic dogma.

Second, I was also making a point that many people who profess to the Christian faith DO wish to live in peace with other people around them, and that from what I've been reading you appear to be generalizing that just because the Bible seems to encourage racism, sexism, ect in certain passages it entails that all Christians in the world RIGHT NOW follow those passages to the letter, which is not true at all.

I understand it could sound like he's implying that; but my problem (and I think his too) is that people use religion as crutch, as a justification for mean, selfish, bigoted and hateful behavior. There is nothing else in our society people use to justify awful behavior as widely accepted save for addiction and people go to rehab for that. Religion is an good and evil thing plain and simple. People can use it for good and people can use it for evil. The fact is no one "needs" it and it has no place in the life of anyone who doesn't want it in their life.

sleepy jack 12-20-2008 04:42 PM

To me religion can has two faces; which are ultimately positive and negative. There's the light side of faith which is a charitable spirit and inner-peace, which is juxtaposed with the dark half; holy wars and bigotry. But ultimately the negative side outdoes the positive because the people who are incredibly zealous about their views tend to force it on the people who are more complacent who on their own probably wouldn't have cared. I mean if they really followed the bible I wouldn't have a problem with them in fact I'd encourage that sort of behavior. It always amazes me how Jesus had way more to say about poverty than abortion and gay marriage and yet you never hear Pat Robertson talk about giving to the poor.

I do however have a major problem with religious institutions and organized religions. I've grown up around churches and to argue they peace preach is ridiculous. I've seen evolution condemned as well as politicians on the far right praised. I once endured a sermon with a friend that can be summed up by this: "Give George W. Bush a break." I'm not a fan of ancient religions or ideas because I feel as a society we've progressed beyond that. We know what an atom is, we know where babies come from, we know about evolution, we don't need fictionalized tails told by men who were just trying to explain things they didn't know or the tales of schizophrenic men either. The bible is historically inaccurate, Jesus never existed and this argument that the tenacity of the idea gives them credibility is absurd.

I'm also strongly opposed to educating children to believe in these ideals. Externalizing blame is a bad thing, kids should learn young to accept and deal with blame and take responsibility. They shouldn't feel ashamed over natural things either and teaching them to judge things as either right or wrong is ridiculous; the world isn't that simple. I do think religious education is very interesting but I think it should be taught purely as a study of beliefs not as fact because that's like teaching people the world is flat. Religion is such a huge party of history and life though it should be taught and understood but I think it's more important critical thinking, logic and philosophy are introduced than fairytales.

There's this notion, particularly in America, that Atheism is bad and immoral and that's wrong and scary. Atheism is as natural as sex. I mean it's nice to know a lot about the bible and religion if you discuss it and argue with it as much as I do but atheism is the natural zero point so it's not their job to justify their stance or be knowledgeable about religion. Intellectual justification only belongs to people who believe they can survive their own death because a magical book about a space deity told them so.

I've gotten fairly boring with religious friends on this subject and while I'm ranting I'll go on about another thing. There's also this idea - usually presented by far right politicians like Sarah Palin or Mike Huckabee - that we've always been a very Christian country; that's not true. While it's true religion has deep roots in American history we've never been particular about the religion. Mormonism, Millerites, Spiritualism, Shakers, Oneida Society, etc...are all important to our history but they're not Christianity. Neither are more recent phenomena; like Heaven's Gate. Religious fanaticism as as American as apple pie but Christian religiosity and evangelicalism but it's only recently that's it become forced as it is now. Under God was only added to the pledge of allegiance in 1951 for instance. I just hate this society we live in...where Christianity is expected of you by the general populace. I just hate the arguments they pose; they think because I'm cynical and skeptical that I don't see any beauty in the world. Which is absurd, I just prefer logical ideas that have been proven. Evolution fascinates me; creationism baffles me and biblical history sounds like an absurdest fairytale.

The arguments I hear are incredibly stupid. "If you don't convert; you'll burn in hell forever" that's scaremongering. The inner-peace argument - how can you be happy or comforted without God in your life - baffles me even more. I don't understand how something that exists purely in your mind can comfort you more then you can yourself. I don't understand how you can claim your belief by citing the benefits of that belief either; it's like Pascal's Wager; completely useless. Just believing doesn't get you anywhere. I'd love to believe that tomorrow I'll be pretty, with a beautiful girlfriend and very rich but that doesn't mean I can believe in it. My mind prohibits such irrational and illogical thoughts and I don't think they're healthy. Atheism and Agnosticism are the only possible schools of thought that one can stand on when it comes to the unknown without dismissing logical thought.

adidasss 04-03-2009 12:00 PM

Iowa Court Says Gay Marriage Ban Is Unconstitutional

3 down, 47 to go. http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/c...lpower/yay.gif

Also: Sweden allows same-sex marriage

http://i43.tinypic.com/2mrfpmg.gif

Janszoon 04-03-2009 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adidasss (Post 628910)

I had been betting New Jersey would be the next one to allow it, looks like I was way off. It's pretty sweet that it was Iowa though. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by adidasss (Post 628910)

I have to admit, I thought they already did.

The Unfan 04-04-2009 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon (Post 628921)
I had been betting New Jersey would be the next one to allow it, looks like I was way off. It's pretty sweet that it was Iowa though. :)


I have to admit, I thought they already did.

We did, and then undid that decision, then we did it again, and undid the decision, and then we did it again.

gunnels 04-04-2009 04:03 PM

Next Objective: Re-claim California.
MARCH FORWARD RAINBOW SOLDIERS.

TheBig3 04-04-2009 04:51 PM


Why are you waiting for us? Talk to Europe.

adidasss 04-04-2009 05:03 PM

What did we say about incomplete thoughts? Anyhoo, I'm just expressing my happiness about the advancement of gay rights, regardless of where it's happening....(:

Bane of your existence 04-04-2009 07:51 PM

Iowa. Land of corn and progression?


I smell a new license plate.

Terrible Lizard 04-04-2009 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bane of your existence (Post 630260)
Iowa. Land of corn and progression?


I smell a new license plate.

Yeah of course.

Iowa. Land of Slipknot and .45423% *** population.

Scarlett O'Hara 04-04-2009 10:15 PM

I think that everyone has a right to love one another, and declare that love in a law binding way to celebrate the beauty of a loving relationship.

TheBig3 04-04-2009 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adidasss (Post 630101)
What did we say about incomplete thoughts? Anyhoo, I'm just expressing my happiness about the advancement of gay rights, regardless of where it's happening....(:

and what did you say about Ignorant American's. don't dodge my point because you're getting toasted again.

For all you ranked on us the last 8 years, we're still miles ahead of your precious continent so suck it. (no *** pun intended)

CAPTAIN CAVEMAN 04-04-2009 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBig3KilledMyRainDog (Post 630452)
For all you ranked on us the last 8 years, we're still miles ahead of your precious continent so suck it. (no *** pun intended)

3 states is "miles ahead" of 5 countries?
you're a little bit of a stuck up bitch, aren't you

sleepy jack 04-04-2009 11:53 PM

Canada still beats America.

Terrible Lizard 04-04-2009 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleepy jack (Post 630462)
Canada still beats America.

And Holland still beats Canada.

Except for all the ugly prostitutes.

TheBig3 04-05-2009 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CAPTAIN CAVEMAN (Post 630457)
3 states is "miles ahead" of 5 countries?
you're a little bit of a stuck up bitch, aren't you

me being a stuck up little bitch has as much to do with this as you being the member who contributes the least to the forums.

name the countries.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleepy jack (Post 630462)
Canada still beats America.

at what, curling?

CAPTAIN CAVEMAN 04-05-2009 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBig3KilledMyRainDog (Post 630477)
me being a stuck up little bitch has as much to do with this as you being the member who contributes the least to the forums.

name the countries.

i wouldn't say THE least... maybe one of
the countries in europe are the netherlands, belgium, spain, norway, and now sweden

and besides them, south africa and canada... hence sleepy jacks comment

jibber 04-05-2009 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBig3KilledMyRainDog (Post 630477)


at what, curling?

Well yes, and hockey too, but I think he was referring to the fact that we legalized *** marriages back in 2005, and haven't gone back and forth like many US states.

TheBig3 04-05-2009 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CAPTAIN CAVEMAN (Post 630480)
i wouldn't say THE least... maybe one of
the countries in europe are the netherlands, belgium, spain, norway, and now sweden

and besides them, south africa and canada... hence sleepy jacks comment

With the exception of Spain though, is that really the Europe old boys throws in your face? My point was for all we're bagged on for being ignorant, we're moving pretty far head. I for one didn't see Iowa coming. I mean granted its a judicial ruling, but the republican governor is appointing these people, what the hell?

For the record, this wasn't "**** europe" statement, it was more of a "quit giving us **** then cheering for us secretly" comment that was not intended to be debated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jibber (Post 630488)
Well yes, and hockey too, but I think he was referring to the fact that we legalized *** marriages back in 2005, and haven't gone back and forth like many US states.

2 states by my count, and I'm going to play this card again. I live in MA and we're outpacing the globe so I'm glad your country can follow the lead of my state.

adidasss 04-05-2009 02:59 PM

Quote:

2 states by my count, and I'm going to play this card again. I live in MA and we're outpacing the globe so I'm glad your country can follow the lead of my state.
If we're going by states, Ontario and British Columbia legalized same-sex marriage before Massachusetts. ;)

sleepy jack 04-05-2009 03:02 PM

And Belgium in 2003 and the Netherlands in 2001. =x

The Unfan 04-05-2009 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBig3KilledMyRainDog (Post 630574)
I for one didn't see Iowa coming.

Its really the only thing Iowa has discussed for about 10 years now.

TheBig3 04-05-2009 07:07 PM

....those aren't states or real countries and...god damn you both.

adidasss 04-07-2009 02:53 PM

Vermont Legislature Legalizes Same-Sex Marriage - washingtonpost.com

4 down, 46 to go...http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/c...lpower/yay.gif

Double X 04-07-2009 03:11 PM

=D

I really hope an big, important state like New York does as well.

adidasss 04-07-2009 03:15 PM

New Jersey is much closer...New Hampshire and Maine are also considering same-sex marriage legislation. Plus, New York already recognizes marriages from other states...(:

Janszoon 04-07-2009 04:51 PM

The only thing surprising about this is that Vermont didn't do it sooner. Only about ten people live there and nine of them are raging liberals.

Meph1986 04-07-2009 05:44 PM

Sadly the south won't be seeing any progress for years :mad:

*hopes to leave to the north soon*

TheBig3 04-07-2009 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Double X (Post 632005)
=D

I really hope an big, important state like New York does as well.

a really big, important state. how dare you?

Double X 04-07-2009 09:37 PM

Here, we could institute forced 'volunteer' work and no one would notice. If Virginia or New York legalizes *** marriage, more countries will probably follow suit than when Vermont did.

gunnels 04-07-2009 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meph1986 (Post 632105)
Sadly the south won't be seeing any progress for years :mad:

*hopes to leave to the north soon*

I hear you my friend, I hear you.

CAPTAIN CAVEMAN 04-07-2009 09:43 PM

Quote:

"Vermont opened an important back door," Pizer said. "Now it has invited *** people to enter through the front door of marriage."
lol...

WWWP 04-07-2009 10:07 PM

Hahaha

Surell 04-07-2009 10:10 PM

Well we got Vermont and somewhat DC guys!

Now if we could only get that darned old Mississippi.

The Unfan 04-10-2009 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayfarer (Post 633208)
it's a trick argument. this is exactly what they want everyone fighting over - either way, they win. don't fight against the government not recognizing gay marriages, fight against the government recognizing straight marriages. the government should have nothing to do with marriage. if you want to scoot off to your local church with your significant other and exchange rings and have some senile old fuck in a robe sprinkle magic fairy dust over your heads and read a coupla passages from some science fiction book, go right ahead, call yourselves married - but the government should look at you as an individual and an individual only.

I would agree with this somewhat. However, since marriage is already government recognized and it has tax benefits that would be a losing battle. So, I figure if the government can recognize some marriage it has to recognize all marriages. Since not everyone believes in the G-man the government has to recognize secular marriage to remain fair. Besides, seperation of church and state, it can't recognize a religious institution therefor the very admittance of government recognized marriage means that they're saying its a legal thing, not a religious thing.

Janszoon 04-10-2009 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Unfan (Post 634807)
I would agree with this somewhat. However, since marriage is already government recognized and it has tax benefits that would be a losing battle. So, I figure if the government can recognize some marriage it has to recognize all marriages. Since not everyone believes in the G-man the government has to recognize secular marriage to remain fair. Besides, seperation of church and state, it can't recognize a religious institution therefor the very admittance of government recognized marriage means that they're saying its a legal thing, not a religious thing.

I agree with all of this. In theory Wayfarer's idea of getting rid of government sanctioned marriage altogether is something I agree with, but in practice one has to recognize that opponents of same-sex marriage already feel that the institution of marriage in under attack. Pushing to get rid of government recognition of straight marriages would make those people really feel under attack and cause them to fight even harder against same-sex marriage.

midnight rain 04-10-2009 01:25 PM

I have nothing wrong with *** marriage.

Everyone may now proceed to jump on me about being a Christian and being okay with *** marriage and how it's contradictory and blah blah blah

Janszoon 04-10-2009 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zzz (Post 634820)
I have nothing wrong with *** marriage.

Everyone may now proceed to jump on me about being a Christian and being okay with *** marriage and how it's contradictory and blah blah blah

Why would people jump on you? I wish more Christians had no problem with gay marriage.

TheBig3 04-10-2009 01:35 PM

yeah I'm not sure people are going to flip out. And its really not contradictory.

From my point of view, the bible will contradict itself. If you're Christian, theres an overwhelimg amount of support on the pro-*** marriage side than the one line against.

midnight rain 04-10-2009 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBig3KilledMyRainDog (Post 634828)
yeah I'm not sure people are going to flip out. And its really not contradictory.

From my point of view, the bible will contradict itself. If you're Christian, theres an overwhelimg amount of support on the pro-*** marriage side than the one line against.

Trust me, lots of non-believers love running off on a tangent about one-liners and small details, they fail to see the big picture


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