Barnard17

He's a Senator. His job is to review and pass or veto bills that come from the House. Have you seen the size of some of those bills? Many are exceedingly large (recall in, I think Fahrenheit 9/11, Moore has waggling about the Patriots Act? THICK). Have you seen how many get reviewed? I don't know about the American system, but in UK politics it's huge. You can go onto the UK Government Website and read all the bills that are up for debate, I expect there's something similar in the US system.

If he's getting anything more than lightly involved in the Chicago politics scene then he doesn't have time to be doing his job in the Senate, the job that he was elected to do and tax dollars are paying him for, to the fullest of his ability and is failing the voter. Unless you have specific instances to cite where Barack got involved and played a part in the current situation, drop the claim. It's an unfounded and nonsensical ad hominem.

It was not a typo. I'm the more important [of the two of us] ... etc. Obviously I'm not more important than the mods or admin, hence not the most important. As for needing to use the font, you might prefer to invest in some decent glasses or a better computer screen. The benefits will be far greater in the long run.

You seem to misunderstand the concept of a debate. If you're making a statement about something specific, you directly quote or cite the source to which you are responding. If you're making a statement about something vague, you make a vague statement.
The only sections that you actively quote from ontheissues.org, and thus are actually responding to, are blanket opinions/voting records and then make statements of supposition based upon that. If you are responding to a specific quote made by Obama, you include that quote in your response.

I do not refuse to read it, I refuse to dig for it. As it is your post, your argument, the burden of evidence falls to you. Giving a general link and saying "it's on there" isn't good enough; how do I know what I've found is what you're actually responding to.

__________________

WendyCal

Firstly, it was the CITY of Chicago, not the state of Illinois.

Second, i didn't personally call it anything.

And now, you might want to think about taking BOTH of your little tidbits of advice.

anticipation

firstly, i live in chicago, so i think i'd have a better idea of what's going on here than you. are you suprised that i responded in defense of my city after you basically bashed it without credible sources and without having first-hand knowledge of city politics?
you attacked an entire city that is internationally recognized as a center of art and culture without puropse.

your entire argument was that obama was from illinois, but only included "facts" about the city of chicago. how can anyone be expected to take your ranting seriously if you can't even form coherent arguments on your own?

WendyCal

i don't know what you're on, but i want some!

i haven't based this thread on Illinois... It's BASED on Obama's policies, with some background on where he came from.

And now, for a word from our sources:

But Friday’’s story also serves as a reminder of what sort of
governance Obama has willingly and knowingly backed with his good
name. Despite his personal popularity, and the resulting capacity he
had for political independence —— despite having many opportunities
to change Chicago in a positive way —— Obama always chose to back
a corrupt status quo. This amazingly unexplored part of Obama’’s
career falsifies the media image he has paid millions of dollars to
project, as an agent of positive change.
~ US News.com

*********
Ryan Lizza, then of The New Republic, quoted an Obama ally who framed the situation in the most sympathetic light possible:
That’’s part of [Obama’’s] political savvy. . . . He recognizes that Daley is a powerful man and to have him as an ally is important. While he was a state senator here and moving around in Chicago, he made sure to minimize the direct confrontational approach to people of influence and policymakers and civic leaders. These are the same people now who are very aggressively supporting his campaign.

*********
Obama Ties To Slumlord Causing Him Distress

Sen. Barack Obama, who has led a fairly charmed existence during his
presidential campaign so far, is starting to draw fire over his ties to an
alleged Chicago Slumlord. The issue, first raised by Chicago Sun-Times
reporter Tim Novak over the last few days, focuses on Obama's ties to
Antoin "Tony" Rezko, a low-income housing developer who is currently
under indictment for shaking down those looking to do business with
the state and is also accused of maintaining vastly substandard
conditions in his properties. Rezko is a long time friend of Obama's
and a former fundraiser. The AP reports that Sen. Obama "said he had
no idea longtime friend and now-indicted fundraiser Antoin 'Tony'
Rezko was behind problem buildings in the South Side district that
Obama once represented as a state senator. 'Should I have known
these buildings were in a state of disrepair? My answer would be that it
wasn't brought to my attention,' Obama told newspapers Monday."
~ USNews & World Reports

*********
The Chicago Sun-Times reports that while "clout and corruption
scandals that have plagued Chicago and Illinois politics in recent
years," they "have not laid a glove on Barack Obama, he told
reporters" in Chicago yesterday. Obama said, " ... There is no doubt
I had friends and continue to have friends who come out of the
more traditional school of Chicago politics ... ”

And that ought to take care of the Who Did Obama Hang With In Chicago question.

jibber

I'm not even going to touch what WendyCal is saying about Obama's job as a senator. It is obvious that she has no idea what is involved in position, and what is out of the jurisdiction of the position, so I'll leave it be.

As for the question of Obama's stance on abortion. Many of the bills that the republican party have been using to sway people away from Obama in the abortion argument are not being explained in full. In the example you quoted, that of partial birth abortion, Obama voted no on the bill because there was no clause excepting the circumstance that there was to be severe danger to the mother. Now if you or someone you loved were pregnant, and it was a matter of aborting the baby or saving the mother's life, wouldn't you want to have that choice? Had that bill passed, that choice would not have been available.

Had you done any research at all, and not just listened to fox news and taken the information ver batim as complete truth, you might be a bit more informed on the issue.

edit: having just had a second look at your last post, I'd like to know where that once excerpt from US News.com came from. It sounds very much like an editorial or letter to the editor, and if that is the case, IS NOT FACT! An editorial is simply an opinion written in by someone with no more credibility than anyone else. You can not use an editorial to back your statements. It is no different than saying "well, my friend agrees with my stance, so there's backup for my argument."

and while we're on the subject of sources, Why not post the link to the actual page on which you found your information? none of us have the time to go digging through thousands of news articles in the archives of that site, so until we can actually view the article and look at the quotes in context, your "citing" has absolutely no value.

__________________
What you've done becomes the judge of what you're going to do -- especially in other people's minds. When you're traveling, you are what you are right there and then. People don't have your past to hold against you. No yesterdays on the road.
William Least Heat Moon, Blue Highways

Your toughest competitor lives in your head. Some days his name is fear, or pain, or gravity. Stomp his ass.

HOOKED ON THE WHITE POWDER

anticipation

honestly, the way you paint out obama to be some huge, corrupt conspirator who hangs out with slum lords at night and idly stands by while the state suffers is just ridiculous. he never partook in kickbacks or housing schemes, which says alot for a illinois senator, and no one gives a **** that he associated with "traditional Chicago politicians". you'd be hard pressed to find a legislator who doesn't associate with shady characters in chicago. you can't just blame obama for the state of chicago/illinois government, especially when it has a history of corruption and ineptitude that goes back to the 1920s.

stop trying to tie Obama to criminals because unless he actively participated in illegal operations, which he didn't, then it has no relevance to anyone.

WendyCal

Have you never heard of the 'good ole boy' network? They have to actually associate with, converse with, party with, etc. with, these other folks in order to schmooz the 'good ole boy's.

Politicians, working together, for the good of their state and cities, is so universally accepted that i'm amazed that you don't understand it. NO politician stands alone. If they do, they stand in the loser's ring.

That being the case, their associations with other politicians, especially if those politicians are being named in fraud and corruptions cases, is pretty important.

A big long excuse is just wasted words.

My point was, and still is:

Obama believes that life begins at the moment of conception, sometimes.
Obama believes that unrestricted abortion should be allowed all the time.
Therefore:
Obama believes that the taking of life should be allowed, sometimes.

Okay?

Now,

The taking of life is defined as murder.
Obama believes that the taking of life should be allowed, sometimes.
Therefore:
Obama believes that murder should be allowed, sometimes.

If he had just said that he didn't believe life started until [ whatever he believes ], that would have been one thing. But to say 'Yeah, i think about it, and sometimes i think this and sometimes i think that' ~ it's like saying that he condones murder.

i hate to say this, but if you had read all of your own source, you would have seen all of the things i'm quoting.

WendyCal

Would you NOT be concerned about all of this if it was McCain???

THAT's why i say you aren't opening your minds.

Pretend, for just a nanosecond, that all this stuff is about McCain. Wouldn't you want to know the whole story? ...

i mean, really.

jibber

WendyCal, you're response was basically one long winded way of saying "I didn't read a word you just wrote, so I'm going to use my same circular and flawed logic to criticize obama without actually talking about any of the issues."

You're not going to convince any pro choice person here that abortion is the same as murder, so stop trying. In this instance, you are talking about your own agenda, and not about the issues.

In reference to your last sentence, I will never see all of the things that you are saying, because everything that you have typed out thus far has been complete and utter nonsense that has no bearing whatsoever on anyone with a slight degree of intelligence who is capable of any kind of critical thinking. You apparently wanted to talk about the issues, and yet any time anyone puts forth an argument backed with evidence that opposes your ideas, you have either insulted their intelligence, or shrugged off their arguments without addressing them.

Now that that's out of the way, I'll respond to your bull**** about the "good ole boy network." let me make this perfectly clear to you. as a SENATOR, obama had no power whatsoever over the actual running of the state of illinois. His power was on a FEDERAL level. He may have attended parties with these "shady characters" but he had no more power over corrupt state officials than a senator from texas would have had.

__________________
What you've done becomes the judge of what you're going to do -- especially in other people's minds. When you're traveling, you are what you are right there and then. People don't have your past to hold against you. No yesterdays on the road.
William Least Heat Moon, Blue Highways

Your toughest competitor lives in your head. Some days his name is fear, or pain, or gravity. Stomp his ass.

HOOKED ON THE WHITE POWDER

anticipation

no, and we don't have to ask "if", we have mccain's past out in public.

i don't give a **** that mccain was a POW. in actuality, the fact that he was a POW tells me that he wasn't enough of a patriot to be willing to die for his country, or our ideals. that's why he surrendered, that's why he became a POW, and that's why he isn't fit to lead.



it's not so nice having nonsensical logic shoved down your throat, now is it?