This I Believe There is / is not a God (Religious, cover)

Dotoar · 01-31-2011, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

No it isn't. Agnosticism and atheism describe views on two different things. The former describes a viewpoint on the nature of knowledge while the later describes a viewpoint on the existence of a god or gods. You can most definitely be both.

No, and for the very reasons ou point out. Atheism as a concept points to the lack of belief in deity, nothing less, nothing more, although its common extension is a viewpoint of knowledge, but not necessarily and not by definition. Agnosticism is the viewpoint where one believe we cannot know wether or not there is a deity, or to put it more crassly, a position where one avoids making a decision at all, although in the process you end up in a theist position since the possibility of a higher deity is by no means rejected. Thus, the two concepts are incompatible, because the very moment where one, even on a theroetical basis, takes a stand even for the mere possibility of a higher deity, one is rejecting the concept of atheism.

RVCA · 01-31-2011, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dotoar

Atheism as a concept points to the lack of belief in deity, nothing less, nothing more

Agnosticism... is a position where one avoids making a decision at all, although in the process you end up in a theist position since the possibility of a higher deity is by no means rejected.

Lack of belief in deities is in no way mutually exclusive from avoiding to make a decision about deities. While you can lack belief because you haven't had the opportunity to form an opinion on the matter at hand (being unaware of said matter), you can also reject to form an opinion which results in lack of belief.

This video sums it up excellently.

"There is more than one way to lack belief in deities."

Dotoar · 01-31-2011, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RVCA

Lack of belief in deities is in no way mutually exclusive from avoiding to make a decision about deities. While you can lack belief because you haven't had the opportunity to form an opinion on the matter at hand (being unaware of said matter), you can also reject to form an opinion which results in lack of belief.

My point was and is that being an atheist you have made the decision already, which eliminates the agnostic position by definition. Maybe I'm nitpicking here, but the mutual exclusion between agnosticism and atheism is not based on that they are referring to two different concepts - gnosticism and theism respectively - but what underlying concept they both are referring to, i.e. a deity. The atheist has made a decision visavi the concept of a deity, the agnostic has not, that's the difference.

Of course, one may use the term 'agnosticism' in a wider perspective than just theism, but in such case we're not discussing god's being or not being exclusively and the concept of atheism is no longer useful. That is to say there may as well be a lot of phenomena we cannot explain and know for sure are the way we think they are, and as far as I'm concerned there are. Enter epistemology.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

I think you missed the point. I don't see love in your list of elements there

As Pratchett might put it, even if you'd grind the universe to the finest powder and sieve it through the finest sieve, you won't find one atom of "love".

It's a name we put on a set of feelings which have an existence entirely dependent on our highly advanced biology and not a force of nature.

Well, our advanced biology and its ontology is indeed a force of nature itself. Love is a human concept, entirely dependent on our consciousness and freewill, all being a part of our nature and thus part of the universal laws applied on us. I'd say that love, in the most universal understanding of it, is when we choose to acknowledge the existence, seek to identify the nature of the objects within it and the rules by which they exist and work, and to acknowledge the very nature of ourselves and the relation between us. In short, love is the perpetual quest for ultimate understanding and the ideal of living on par with existence, the universe, everything. Love is knowledge is understanding is harmony is peace.

That's what "Close to the edge" is about, by the way. I know. I wrote a whole B-level essay about it.

**Janszoon** · 01-31-2011, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dotoar

No, and for the very reasons ou point out. Atheism as a concept points to the lack of belief in deity, nothing less, nothing more, although its common extension is a viewpoint of knowledge, but not necessarily and not by definition. Agnosticism is the viewpoint where one believe we cannot know wether or not there is a deity, or to put it more crassly, a position where one avoids making a decision at all, although in the process you end up in a theist position since the possibility of a higher deity is by no means rejected. Thus, the two concepts are incompatible, because the very moment where one, even on a theroetical basis, takes a stand even for the mere possibility of a higher deity, one is rejecting the concept of atheism.

They most certainly are compatible, for the reasons I have already described. Your logic is based on misperceptions that, while common, are nevertheless incorrect. There's a nice little explanation of how they're compatible here that might clarify things a bit.

Dotoar · 02-01-2011, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

They most certainly are compatible, for the reasons I have already described. Your logic is based on misperceptions that, while common, are nevertheless incorrect. There's a nice little explanation of how they're compatible here that might clarify things a bit.

I see where the running point lies here, and it may be that I myself am an atheist and thus reject the existence of a deity. I reckon that the concept of a deity itself implies a belief thoroughly which renders every stand that implies even the mere possibility of a god as theist. An agnostic, by the definition of someone who claims not to have the capabilities to know wether or not there is a god and thus within the theist context does not exclude the possibility of a god, is therefore subject of a non-atheist position, i.e. a theist position as a result of that. It's a negative exclusion, not a positive which may cause misinterpretation.

**Janszoon** · 02-01-2011, 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dotoar

I see where the running point lies here, and it may be that I myself am an atheist and thus reject the existence of a deity. I reckon that the concept of a deity itself implies a belief thoroughly which renders every stand that implies even the mere possibility of a god as theist. An agnostic, by the definition of someone who claims not to have the capabilities to know wether or not there is a god and thus within the theist context does not exclude the possibility of a god, is therefore subject of a non-atheist position, i.e. a theist position as a result of that. It's a negative exclusion, not a positive which may cause misinterpretation.

Did you read that link?

Dotoar · 02-01-2011, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

Did you read that link?

No, I took a shot in the dark hoping it would go unnoticed.

**Janszoon** · 02-01-2011, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dotoar

No, I took a shot in the dark hoping it would go unnoticed.

Please read it.