This I Believe There is / is not a God

Bloozcrooz · 01-04-2011, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

Earlier today, there was a film about Moses on the telly and it got me wondering quite a bit as I watched it.

The story of Moses is good, old fashioned christianity. God is a pretty scary deity who kills a whole lot of egyptians, for example through the 7 plagues like killing all egyptian first born children or when the pursuing egyptians are swallowed by the red sea.

Later in the story, Moses gets the ten commandments, one of which is "thou shalt not kill" which seems to me a little contradictory coming from a God that supposedly caused all kinds of suffering a little earlier in the film. What do you christians think about this?

Also, God is very active in this story. If you were not a christian, you would almost have to become one because his direct involvement in the lives of the people in this story is undeniable. It's not a voice in hearts or heads, but real stuff happening physically to people and the world. For example, the Nile's water turns to blood and he splits the red sea. Why is it that God has stopped interacting with people in such a direct way?

Very good points that you have made. Ive watched that movie from a child all through the years. Having been raised in your typical southern baptist home here in Texas. I noticed you raised thought to why God seemed to contradict hiself. Well life is a gift from God in Christianity. Were given the choice to obey or not. Its been awhile but I think they had been warned several times before God showed his wrath. As we as humans find it against the law to kill, but in the same token put to death murders. Then God was these people's only hope. Thats as good as I can elaborate on it for you. Ultimatley he is God and not to be questioned for us, but always fair and merciful. As far as his interacting after Jesus was sent to die on the cross there was'nt the need for his interacting on earth anymore. His son was the ultimate sacrifice. Sent to teach and show and work miracles then die for our sins.So that through his blood we could be saved. Let me correct myself he still interacts just not as direct. The stronger your faith the more his works are seen though. Im no preacher but thats as good as I can describe it for you. Hope maybe it gave you some insight friend.

**Janszoon** · 01-04-2011, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boozinbloozin

His son was the ultimate sacrifice.

How so?

Bloozcrooz · 01-04-2011, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

How so?

How was Gods son the ultimate sacrifice? Well I dont know how you could sacrifice anything more sacred. I mean thats as much knowledge as I have on the topic. The life of your child is more sacred than your own. Or at least should be. Speaking as a father. Do you agree??

**Janszoon** · 01-04-2011, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boozinbloozin

How was Gods son the ultimate sacrifice? Well I dont know how you could sacrifice anything more sacred. I mean thats as much knowledge as I have on the topic. The life of your child is more sacred than your own. Or at least should be. Speaking as a father. Do you agree??

But aren't all people supposed to be god's children? What makes Jesus any more of a sacrifice than any of the thousands of other people the Romans crucified?

Guybrush · 01-04-2011, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boozinbloozin

Very good points that you have made. Ive watched that movie from a child all through the years. Having been raised in your typical southern baptist home here in Texas. I noticed you raised thought to why God seemed to contradict hiself. Well life is a gift from God in Christianity. Were given the choice to obey or not. Its been awhile but I think they had been warned several times before God showed his wrath. As we as humans find it against the law to kill, but in the same token put to death murders. Then God was these people's only hope. Thats as good as I can elaborate on it for you. Ultimatley he is God and not to be questioned for us, but always fair and merciful. As far as his interacting after Jesus was sent to die on the cross there was'nt the need for his interacting on earth anymore. His son was the ultimate sacrifice. Sent to teach and show and work miracles then die for our sins.So that through his blood we could be saved. Let me correct myself he still interacts just not as direct. The stronger your faith the more his works are seen though. Im no preacher but thats as good as I can describe it for you. Hope maybe it gave you some insight friend.

First, I wanted to write thank you for an honest answer

Because I didn't get one earlier, I expected it wasn't something that christians would like to get into because they would worry about being attacked in a one-sided argument.

I point out these things specifically because they are things that I would have trouble with myself, had I believed in God and this story of Moses as it is. It's true that God (through Moses) did warn the egyptians, or at least the pharaoh, so it was part the pharaoh's decision to not listen which led to so much suffering for the egyptians. The way they suffered was all in control of God of course, so I don't think one can call it a natural consequence from a lack of obedience. It's like saying if you drive without a seat belt, I'm going to kill you. If you then kill someone because they didn't do what you said, you did the killing and you are responsible for that. You didn't have to kill. Similarly, God obviously killed these egyptians. He's clearly a vengeful God in this story and instead of giving the egyptian people a chance at atonement, he only warns the pharaoh who in the story was a very proud and difficult person. It seems God had a wish to kill them because if he really wanted to spare their lives, he could've done more to persuade them and he basically could have chosen not to kill. In the red sea, why drown the following egyptians for example? He could've just made a wall of water blocking their path.

As such, I can't accept that he is always fair and merciful based on this story. The first born children of the egyptians were killed and were not given a chance at life. Where's the fairness in that?

The idea that you can't question God is understandable. How could we ants attempt to understand the grand scheme anyways? However, I wouldn't be comfortable with the passive role that one should not ask difficult questions.

The idea that there's no reason for interacting after Jesus builds on the assumption that God's only motivation for interacting is because he wants to save people from sin and that this is something Jesus now has done for us and for people in the future. I'm not sure I believe this as he/she/it seems to have different motives in other stories. For example in the story of Noah and the flood, he kills almost everyone and everything. The motive doesn't seem to be to give people and animals a chance at salvation, but rather to wipe the slate clean so that he can start again, another story which does not seem fair or merciful to me!

I could add at the end that in the story of Job, God lets Satan take Job's wealth, children and health - everything he has, just as a test. After suffering, because of his dedication to God, Job is reimbursed for his loss (suggesting that his children have worth the same way objects like footballs or bikecycles have worth), but it still looks very much like playing with the lives of people, not entirely unlike the way the Olympian gods play with the lives of people.

I realize that christians may not believe these stories, even if they are in the bible. For example the story of the flood seems very far fetched to me and many christians too, I'm sure. However, the story of Moses is fundamental to the bible and is regularly referenced in sermons. I imagine it might be a hard one to "escape" for believers.

noise · 01-04-2011, 09:29 AM

I have no sympathy for a deity that can whimsically slaughter thousands of lusty Moabites, angel-buggering Sodomites and dirty stinking Philistines, no matter how many sons he sacrifices.

It's all just a bunch of metaphors and parables anyway

Bloozcrooz · 01-04-2011, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

But aren't all people supposed to be god's children? What makes Jesus any more of a sacrifice than any of the thousands of other people the Romans crucified?

Good point. After Christ we were all given the chance to be Gods people. In the B.C. the Jews were the chosen ones. Through Jesus being crucified the Gentiles were able to be washed in the blood of Christ. Pharaoh's people did not worship God. Very few made it into heaven before Christ. Im not sure if thats 100% accurate but it go's along those lines I beleive. Does that answer your question? Or does that still leave a lot of grey area?

**Janszoon** · 01-04-2011, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boozinbloozin

Good point. After Christ we were all given the chance to be Gods people. In the B.C. the Jews were the chosen ones. Through Jesus being crucified the Gentiles were able to be washed in the blood of Christ. Pharaoh's people did not worship God. Very few made it into heaven before Christ. Im not sure if thats 100% accurate but it go's along those lines I beleive. Does that answer your question? Or does that still leave a lot of grey area?

That didn't answer my question at all actually. But why would any of this stuff have to happen anyway? God can do whatever he wants, why set up some crazy scenario where most people wind up going to hell?

Bloozcrooz · 01-04-2011, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

First, I wanted to write thank you for an honest answer

Because I didn't get one earlier, I expected it wasn't something that christians would like to get into because they would worry about being attacked in a one-sided argument.

I point out these things specifically because they are things that I would have trouble with myself, had I believed in God and this story of Moses as it is. It's true that God (through Moses) did warn the egyptians, or at least the pharaoh, so it was part the pharaoh's decision to not listen which led to so much suffering for the egyptians. The way they suffered was all in control of God of course, so I don't think one can call it a natural consequence from a lack of obedience. It's like saying if you drive without a seat belt, I'm going to kill you. If you then kill someone because they didn't do what you said, you did the killing and you are responsible for that. You didn't have to kill. Similarly, God obviously killed these egyptians. He's clearly a vengeful God in this story and instead of giving the egyptian people a chance at atonement, he only warns the pharaoh who in the story was a very proud and difficult person. It seems God had a wish to kill them because if he really wanted to spare their lives, he could've done more to persuade them and he basically could have chosen not to kill. In the red sea, why drown the following egyptians for example? He could've just made a wall of water blocking their path.

As such, I can't accept that he is always fair and merciful based on this story. The first born children of the egyptians were killed and were not given a chance at life. Where's the fairness in that?

The idea that you can't question God is understandable. How could we ants attempt to understand the grand scheme anyways? However, I wouldn't be comfortable with the passive role that one should not ask difficult questions.

The idea that there's no reason for interacting after Jesus builds on the assumption that God's only motivation for interacting is because he wants to save people from sin and that this is something Jesus now has done for us and for people in the future. I'm not sure I believe this as he/she/it seems to have different motives in other stories. For example in the story of Noah and the flood, he kills almost everyone and everything. The motive doesn't seem to be to give people and animals a chance at salvation, but rather to wipe the slate clean so that he can start again, another story which does not seem fair or merciful to me!

I could add at the end that in the story of Job, God lets Satan take Job's wealth, children and health - everything he has, just as a test. After suffering, because of his dedication to God, Job is reimbursed for his loss (suggesting that his children have worth the same way objects like footballs or bikecycles have worth), but it still looks very much like playing with the lives of people, not entirely unlike the way the Olympian gods play with the lives of people.

I realize that christians may not believe these stories, even if they are in the bible. For example the story of the flood seems very far fetched to me and many christians too, I'm sure. However, the story of Moses is fundamental to the bible and is regularly referenced in sermons. I imagine it might be a hard one to "escape" for believers.

Religion is always a touchy subject to talk about. You seem to have a lot knowledge about Christianity. I wish I had all the answers but I dont. I still have a lot of questions myself to be honest. Through the years as I get older I have more and more. Always good to hear what questions other people have and hear things from their side as well. I guess one day we will all know the truth.

Bloozcrooz · 01-04-2011, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

That didn't answer my question at all actually. But why would any of this stuff have to happen anyway? God can do whatever he wants, why set up some crazy scenario where most people wind up going to hell?

Lol I dont my friend. Im only a man. The older I get the more im thinking Hendrix was God. All good points though and questions id like to know the for sure answers to myself.

01-04-2011, 09:29 AM	#606 (permalink)
noise thirsty ears Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Boulder Posts: 742	I have no sympathy for a deity that can whimsically slaughter thousands of lusty Moabites, angel-buggering Sodomites and dirty stinking Philistines, no matter how many sons he sacrifices. It's all just a bunch of metaphors and parables anyway __________________ my flac collection