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03-20-2010, 10:40 PM | #511 (permalink) | |
carpe musicam
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Les Barricades Mystérieuses
Posts: 7,710
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Christian martyrdom can not be self destructive, self loathing motive behind it, martyrs don't want to die because they hate their life or someone else's life; their death is something that happens to them because of their faith. Not all matyrdoms end in death, someone can suffer a (bloodless) "white" matyrdom when they are persecuted or face hardship for their beliefs. (I think just to admit there is a God in today's society is a white matyrdom.) When it comes to "self-sacrifice," there has to be a right motive behind it, it can't be done begrudgingly or have ulterior motives behind it.
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"it counts in our hearts" ?ºº? “I have nothing to offer anybody, except my own confusion.” Jack Kerouac. “If one listens to the wrong kind of music, he will become the wrong kind of person.” Aristotle. "If you tried to give Rock and Roll another name, you might call it 'Chuck Berry'." John Lennon "I look for ambiguity when I'm writing because life is ambiguous." Keith Richards |
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03-21-2010, 12:42 PM | #512 (permalink) | ||
Existential Egoist
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,468
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You are ignoring the obvious message that Jesus tried to put forth, and that is a message of self-sacrifice to God, and secondly to others. He died for that message and people celebrate that. That is what Easter celebrates. The resurrection only serves as a symbol that God is all powerful. Since he is all powerful, you should obey him. Have you even looked at the early church at all? Jesus was warning them of the up and coming martyrdom that would plague them until they deserted their position as the persecuted to become exactly what God did not want them to be, the persecutor. Slaves, obey your masters because it is your duty to God. Same with women and their husbands. Quote:
First, martyrs want to die because it is their duty to God to do so. Even though their life would be better lived, they do it anyways because it is what God wants. They aren't (theoretically) doing it because they want to die. They are doing it for God. Yes, I agree wholeheartedly with that. It is still self-sacrifice in the way I described it. It is still the neglect of one's own self-interest. In reality, though, many Christians are looking for an escape route for their discontentment with life. They acknowledge that one has to run away from the black hole that modern existentialism is present in. They acknowledge that there really is no meaning to life on this earth unless you abandon reality and substitute it with a faith-based perception. Some martyrs act with the disinterest that you talk of, most martyrs act with self-hatred. Either way, they do not take an interest in themselves, which is exactly what they should be taking interest in. |
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03-21-2010, 10:34 PM | #513 (permalink) | ||
carpe musicam
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Les Barricades Mystérieuses
Posts: 7,710
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There was nothing in what I said that was an attack, I was telling you what I thought about martyrdom. I thought if I did that you would respond and maybe I would get a better picture of what you were saying. I was only a little confused about your attitude behind what you saying. I guess they're linked together imho, "to sacrifice their lives" & "self-sacrifice" plus in the context of what was said they were two example of the way you say things about Christianity that leave guessing. And anyway phrases like "to sacrifice their lives" & "self-sacrifice" aren't exclusively Christian, a journalist or historian can say those words about anybody eg a soldier. In war a soldier could be killed on the battlefeild or he could be captured and given choice of revealing secrets or torture and death. He doesn't want to be tortured, he doesn't want to die, but also he doesn't want to reveal information that would lead other soldiers to die. He doesn't reveal the information to the enemy and faces the consequence because he hates himself or hates life, but sees a greater good in saving his follow soldier & friends. It's just the situation he is in, and the choices he's given and you can't say he hates himself because he sees a greater good the life of other soldiers. Matryrdom is similar. Most the time a martyrs are just killed because of his/her faith. But sometimes there is a choice involve like in the case of Thomas More. Exteriorly it may look like there is no self interest or self-hatred invovle, but interiorly the motive is based on a greater good.
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"it counts in our hearts" ?ºº? “I have nothing to offer anybody, except my own confusion.” Jack Kerouac. “If one listens to the wrong kind of music, he will become the wrong kind of person.” Aristotle. "If you tried to give Rock and Roll another name, you might call it 'Chuck Berry'." John Lennon "I look for ambiguity when I'm writing because life is ambiguous." Keith Richards |
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03-26-2010, 08:58 AM | #514 (permalink) |
Music Addict
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 112
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What greater good in saving his fellow ..?
Do you have any idea how stupid the whole soldier thing sounds? The soldier goes to war on behalf of his country (his "leaders") and wages war for his "masters" ends and you say there's greater good in this? What great good is there in the suppressing of weak countries ? |
03-26-2010, 12:38 PM | #515 (permalink) | |
Groupie
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 22
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03-26-2010, 02:59 PM | #516 (permalink) |
Music Addict
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Originally from Lancashire, England, lived near Largs, Scotland and now live in Rocky Face, Georgia
Posts: 154
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Hi there,
Just came across this thread so I have not had time to wade through the whole 50 odd pages so here's my simple, (and to me anyway), satisfactory explanation: 'GOD' in one form or another must be around otherwise this thread would not be here in the first place. For me, 'GOD' is the word we use to fill the huge void that none of us are really big enough to fully understand. 'GOD' is the energy, the potential for life in it's many forms that as always been and always will be. There as never been a time when this potential did not exist and there will never be a time when it does not exist. Being able to truly accept that is the hardest, but most important thing. Our time here is just way smaller and shorter than the piddliest tiny thing you can imagine compared to what is behind us and what is in front of us both in space and time. I would say I'm a spiritual person who appreciates my time here on this Earth and yes, I do believe in what we seem to call 'GOD'. However, my own feelings and experience tell me that 'GOD' is not a being but is in fact everything. We are part of this and because we have brains we tend to think 'GOD' is like us.. -Typical ! The truth is, man kind is not prepared to take on the responsibility and so we created something, a father figure to take all that away. Just part of the human nature I guess. Wow, it must be Friday! Have a great weekend ya,ll. Peace and love to almost everyone.. just joking,-everyone then. Gordon. |
03-26-2010, 10:11 PM | #517 (permalink) | |
Strong and Quite Strong
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: When you get out on the interstate, take a left after the gas station
Posts: 64
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Yes, killing is wrong, but until the human race becomes entirely pacifist, which is to say inhuman, its best not to worry about "the greater good", because chances are you don't understand exactly what is behind the fighting.
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One day dude, one day I'm just gonna get off the bus, an I'm gonna run into the woods an I'm never gonna come back. And when I come back, I'm gonna be the night master |
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04-04-2010, 08:04 AM | #518 (permalink) | ||
Existential Egoist
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,468
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I understand that self-sacrifice is preached beyond Christianity, which is why I don't consider Christianity to be the root of evil or anything. Either way, it still preaches self-sacrifice. Quote:
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04-04-2010, 10:15 PM | #519 (permalink) |
Quiet Man in the Corner
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Pocono Mountains
Posts: 2,480
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My issue with religion is that it requires you to follow blindly without questioning anything. Just have "faith" and then listen to a man in a robe talk at you about it.. and then leave a tip in a small basket. Do it for Jesus
Well that's my 2 cents, have a good day. |
04-05-2010, 03:09 PM | #520 (permalink) |
Music Addict
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 13
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"I reverse the phrase of Voltaire, and say that if God would have existed, it would be necessary to abolish him."
- Mikhail Bakunin
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"The reason we want to go on and on is because we live in an impoverished present." - Alan Watts |