This I Believe There is / is not a God

noise · 03-19-2010, 02:05 PM

the story of christ's death and resurrection evolved from classic tales of shamanic rebirth. it's all purely metaphorical, connoting spiritual renewal, and rising above human nature in an attempt to see the bigger picture. nothing at all sadomasochistic about that...

Inuzuka Skysword · 03-19-2010, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardboard adolescent

I assume by "rational basis" you mean it can be logically deduced from a set of axioms, and I suppose whether or not self-sacrifice=virtue is a valid statement depends on the set of moral axioms you're working with. What set of moral axioms are you working with? (I mean, if your behavior is at all rational (systematic) it must reduce to moral axioms, right?)

We can see if the notion of self-sacrifice conflicts with your axioms, and if it does, we can see if your axioms are consistent with each other, and if they are, we can ask whether they are unquestionably valid or assumptions. And if you don't have any axioms, then this conversation is more or less meaningless.

Man is an end in himself. Pain and pleasure are experienced personally. He can only be proud in himself because he is, in the end, responsible for his own actions. While he cannot control external forces he certainly can react to them, which therefore makes him partially responsible for his contentment in his position in life. Pleasure, esteem, and contentment with the world are all based on oneself. They all are part of happiness. You cannot be happy and be devoid of pleasure. You cannot be happy without self-esteem. You aren't going to be happy, in the true sense of the word, if you aren't doing all you can do to avoid negative external forces. Happiness is the goal of human existence. It is the emotion of good. If you question that, you are questioning your senses. You have to trust your senses because you can't live as a human being if you don't. You will be stuck in a corner sucking your thumb all your life.

Our own happiness is the goal of morality. Common sense would have us say that making the achievement of our own happiness would lead to our own happiness.

Quote:

Is rationality the only thing you have to fall back on? No matter what argument, what sphere of conversation or how badly you're losing you can always throw out that same old gem. How is it that you haven't learned that there is no such thing as rationality, no such thing as logical conclusions or reasoning that isn't completely and irrevocably subjective. It's impossible to separate the two, and that's the great fallacy of objective reasoning. Your rationale is based on naive absolutes that remain untested by even your methods, be they metaphysical or scientific, because of the infallible logic that they are "inherent in nature, therefore they don't have to be tested." You're like a broken record, and my ears are beginning to bleed.

I am sorry I don't believe in your subjectivity. If you take your view to the extreme you will realize that since there is no objective reason to believe anything, you cannot criticize anything. You cannot even participate in this discussion. Bye.

Quote:

Good Friday is the memorial of Christ's crucifixion, Easter is the celebration of his resurrection. There is nothing sad, or mournful, or "sadomasochistic" (which is pretty laughable in the first place) about Easter, that's why there's such a huge rebirth and reincarnation theme with it. It has nothing to do with drinking Christ's blood (you're referring to transubstantiation, correct?), at least not in the Protestant sense. And in the twenty Easter sermons I have heard not one of them has dipped toes in calling the crucifix a figure of self-sacrifice.

Christians take joy in the death of Jesus. If Jesus didn't die for them, they wouldn't be able to reunite with God. Even if some churches don't come out and celebrate it, they celebrate the human sacrifice of Jesus more than anything. It was the greatest sacrifice of all according to them. Heck, Jesus was all about human sacrifice to God and your fellow man. Jesus's ethics were completely altruistic. He asks Christians to do the same, to sacrifice their lives.

Quote:

the story of christ's death and resurrection evolved from classic tales of shamanic rebirth. it's all purely metaphorical, connoting spiritual renewal, and rising above human nature in an attempt to see the bigger picture. nothing at all sadomasochistic about that...

I realize that it is a metaphor, but it is metaphor for self-sacrifice.

TheReverend · 03-19-2010, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inuzuka Skysword

Man is an end in himself. Pain and pleasure are experienced personally. He can only be proud in himself because he is, in the end, responsible for his own actions. While he cannot control external forces he certainly can react to them, which therefore makes him partially responsible for his contentment in his position in life. Pleasure, esteem, and contentment with the world are all based on oneself. They all are part of happiness. You cannot be happy and be devoid of pleasure. You cannot be happy without self-esteem. You aren't going to be happy, in the true sense of the word, if you aren't doing all you can do to avoid negative external forces. Happiness is the goal of human existence. It is the emotion of good. If you question that, you are questioning your senses. You have to trust your senses because you can't live as a human being if you don't. You will be stuck in a corner sucking your thumb all your life.

Our own happiness is the goal of morality. Common sense would have us say that making the achievement of our own happiness would lead to our own happiness.

I am sorry I don't believe in your subjectivity. If you take your view to the extreme you will realize that since there is no objective reason to believe anything, you cannot criticism anything. You cannot even participate in this discussion. Bye.

Christians take joy in the death of Jesus. If Jesus didn't die for them, they wouldn't be able to reunite with God. Even if some churches don't come out and celebrate it, they celebrate the human sacrifice of Jesus more than anything. It was the greatest sacrifice of all according to them. Heck, Jesus was all about human sacrifice to God and your fellow man. Jesus's ethics were completely altruistic. He asks Christians to do the same, to sacrifice their lives.

I realize that it is a metaphor, but it is metaphor for self-sacrifice.

This world needs more people like you.

For what its worth, though, church/religion in itself exists for all the right reasons; community and love, all of the core values, are correct no matter your opinion on this subject.

cardboard adolescent · 03-20-2010, 03:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inuzuka Skysword

Man is an end in himself. Pain and pleasure are experienced personally. He can only be proud in himself because he is, in the end, responsible for his own actions. While he cannot control external forces he certainly can react to them, which therefore makes him partially responsible for his contentment in his position in life. Pleasure, esteem, and contentment with the world are all based on oneself. They all are part of happiness. You cannot be happy and be devoid of pleasure. You cannot be happy without self-esteem. You aren't going to be happy, in the true sense of the word, if you aren't doing all you can do to avoid negative external forces. Happiness is the goal of human existence. It is the emotion of good. If you question that, you are questioning your senses. You have to trust your senses because you can't live as a human being if you don't. You will be stuck in a corner sucking your thumb all your life.

Our own happiness is the goal of morality. Common sense would have us say that making the achievement of our own happiness would lead to our own happiness.

Is there a difference between happiness and pleasure? I agree that man is self-sufficient in finding pleasure, but doesn't self-esteem require others? I think the whole point in sacrifice is realizing that you're not enough on your own, and need others to achieve true contentment. And once you realize that you also realize that not only do you need others, you need others to be willing to sacrifice for you, and that will only happen if you're open to sacrifice yourself. To me, that's what love is all about and I don't think you can really get around it.

Inuzuka Skysword · 03-20-2010, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardboard adolescent

Is there a difference between happiness and pleasure? I agree that man is self-sufficient in finding pleasure, but doesn't self-esteem require others? I think the whole point in sacrifice is realizing that you're not enough on your own, and need others to achieve true contentment. And once you realize that you also realize that not only do you need others, you need others to be willing to sacrifice for you, and that will only happen if you're open to sacrifice yourself. To me, that's what love is all about and I don't think you can really get around it.

Self-esteem does not require others. Self-esteem should not be "How good am I in relation to other beings?" It should be a question of "Am I being as good of a being as I can be?"

Now if you are talking about the fact that in order to create and produce, the highest means of achieving healthy self-esteem, we need others then I would say I agree. If we all worked alone and never worked with each other then mankind would be a hell of a lot further away from where it is now.

One can work with others selfishly though. One doesn't need to sacrifice himself to do that. Relationships between rational men are trades. One person wants something, and the other person wants something else. Each has what the other wants. They trade in order to gain the value that they both desire. No sacrifice was made, and progress was made on both sides.

If self-sacrifice is needed in order to achieve contentment then it what areas is that true?

Also, I fear that we may be arguing with different definitions of self-sacrifice. I am operating on the idea that self-sacrifice is when one experiences a net loss or gives up a higher value for a lower value.

lucifer_sam · 03-20-2010, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inuzuka Skysword

Christians take joy in the death of Jesus. If Jesus didn't die for them, they wouldn't be able to reunite with God. Even if some churches don't come out and celebrate it, they celebrate the human sacrifice of Jesus more than anything. It was the greatest sacrifice of all according to them. Heck, Jesus was all about human sacrifice to God and your fellow man. Jesus's ethics were completely altruistic. He asks Christians to do the same, to sacrifice their lives.

And you read this where? Idiot's Guide to Fascist Theology or something?

Had there not been a resurrection, the story would be meaningless. Easter does not celebrate his death, it rejoices for his rebirth. The "take up your cross and follow me" is a reference to spreading the Gospel, not the pursuit of martyrdom.

**Janszoon** · 03-20-2010, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lucifer_sam

Easter does not celebrate his death...

True, but Good Friday does.

lucifer_sam · 03-20-2010, 04:05 PM

Right, but fasting all day isn't exactly celebrating.

**Janszoon** · 03-20-2010, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lucifer_sam

Right, but fasting all day isn't exactly celebrating.

Depends if heroin is involved or not.

TheReverend · 03-20-2010, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

Depends if heroin is involved or not.

03-19-2010, 02:05 PM	#501 (permalink)
noise thirsty ears Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Boulder Posts: 742	the story of christ's death and resurrection evolved from classic tales of shamanic rebirth. it's all purely metaphorical, connoting spiritual renewal, and rising above human nature in an attempt to see the bigger picture. nothing at all sadomasochistic about that... __________________ my flac collection

03-20-2010, 04:05 PM	#508 (permalink)
lucifer_sam Unrepentant Ass-Mod Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 3,921	Right, but fasting all day isn't exactly celebrating. __________________ first.am