lucifer_sam

And you read this where? Idiot's Guide to Fascist Theology or something?

Had there not been a resurrection, the story would be meaningless. Easter does not celebrate his death, it rejoices for his rebirth. The "take up your cross and follow me" is a reference to spreading the Gospel, not the pursuit of martyrdom.

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Janszoon

True, but Good Friday does.

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Inuzuka Skysword

If there wasn't a resurrection, he still would have died for the sins of many, which is something that is celebrated and revered.

You are ignoring the obvious message that Jesus tried to put forth, and that is a message of self-sacrifice to God, and secondly to others. He died for that message and people celebrate that. That is what Easter celebrates. The resurrection only serves as a symbol that God is all powerful. Since he is all powerful, you should obey him.

Have you even looked at the early church at all? Jesus was warning them of the up and coming martyrdom that would plague them until they deserted their position as the persecuted to become exactly what God did not want them to be, the persecutor. Slaves, obey your masters because it is your duty to God. Same with women and their husbands.

You took two quotes which were not linked to each other and successfully attacked a non-existent point.

First, martyrs want to die because it is their duty to God to do so. Even though their life would be better lived, they do it anyways because it is what God wants. They aren't (theoretically) doing it because they want to die. They are doing it for God. Yes, I agree wholeheartedly with that. It is still self-sacrifice in the way I described it. It is still the neglect of one's own self-interest.

In reality, though, many Christians are looking for an escape route for their discontentment with life. They acknowledge that one has to run away from the black hole that modern existentialism is present in. They acknowledge that there really is no meaning to life on this earth unless you abandon reality and substitute it with a faith-based perception. Some martyrs act with the disinterest that you talk of, most martyrs act with self-hatred. Either way, they do not take an interest in themselves, which is exactly what they should be taking interest in.

Neapolitan

Did anyone ever say something and you thought to yourself it could go either way. Like if you were walking with a friend outside and it's a dreary drizzling day and he said "lovely weather we're having, aren't we." And you think to yourself well he could like a rainy day, or maybe he could hate a rainy day, too.
There was nothing in what I said that was an attack, I was telling you what I thought about martyrdom. I thought if I did that you would respond and maybe I would get a better picture of what you were saying. I was only a little confused about your attitude behind what you saying. I guess they're linked together imho, "to sacrifice their lives" & "self-sacrifice" plus in the context of what was said they were two example of the way you say things about Christianity that leave guessing. And anyway phrases like "to sacrifice their lives" & "self-sacrifice" aren't exclusively Christian, a journalist or historian can say those words about anybody eg a soldier.

In war a soldier could be killed on the battlefeild or he could be captured and given choice of revealing secrets or torture and death. He doesn't want to be tortured, he doesn't want to die, but also he doesn't want to reveal information that would lead other soldiers to die. He doesn't reveal the information to the enemy and faces the consequence because he hates himself or hates life, but sees a greater good in saving his follow soldier & friends. It's just the situation he is in, and the choices he's given and you can't say he hates himself because he sees a greater good the life of other soldiers. Matryrdom is similar. Most the time a martyrs are just killed because of his/her faith. But sometimes there is a choice involve like in the case of Thomas More. Exteriorly it may look like there is no self interest or self-hatred invovle, but interiorly the motive is based on a greater good.

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Neapolitan

Christian martyrdom can not be self destructive, self loathing motive behind it, martyrs don't want to die because they hate their life or someone else's life; their death is something that happens to them because of their faith. Not all matyrdoms end in death, someone can suffer a (bloodless) "white" matyrdom when they are persecuted or face hardship for their beliefs. (I think just to admit there is a God in today's society is a white matyrdom.) When it comes to "self-sacrifice," there has to be a right motive behind it, it can't be done begrudgingly or have ulterior motives behind it.

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Red Forman

"I reverse the phrase of Voltaire, and say that if God would have existed, it would be necessary to abolish him."
- Mikhail Bakunin

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noise

the story of christ's death and resurrection evolved from classic tales of shamanic rebirth. it's all purely metaphorical, connoting spiritual renewal, and rising above human nature in an attempt to see the bigger picture. nothing at all sadomasochistic about that...

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lucifer_sam

Right, but fasting all day isn't exactly celebrating.

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Janszoon

Depends if heroin is involved or not.

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TheReverend

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One day dude, one day I'm just gonna get off the bus, an I'm gonna run into the woods an I'm never gonna come back. And when I come back, I'm gonna be the night master