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01-04-2010, 09:35 PM | #441 (permalink) | |
MB quadrant's JM Vincent
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i feel like on a smaller scale, we all feel this. like a problem you can't solve only to have the solution smack you in the face in a moment of clarity...an epiphany, if you will.
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01-05-2010, 01:21 AM | #442 (permalink) | |||||
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Tarski's undefinability theorem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Quote:
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i should point out that "which works better as a model" does not mean "which is closer to reality?" since this again is completely circular, we can not compare a system to reality because we do not know this reality beyond the system we have of understanding it, so ultimately this would just mean comparing the system to itself. we can perfect a system by trying to resolve its internal contradictions, but there is a limit to this as well, which was found by godel. he proved that a system can not be complete and consistent... to remain consistent it must be incomplete (and of course if it loses consistency, it becomes meaningless). so does this mean we should assume that reality itself is incomplete? or that the systems we use to model reality are inherently imperfect? Quote:
i'm not questioning the law of identity, because to question the law of identity already presupposes it. you should make your perspective stronger, and instead of saying that "whatever isn't reason isn't thought" simply say that there is no thinking outside reason. because if there is something trans-rational that isn't thought, then there obviously is a mode of transcending reason, which is what i think you're confusedly arguing against. what i am questioning is that you can "prove" the law of identity, you can't you have to assume it. and there is a huge difference between proving and assuming: any proof is always dependent on an assumption, but this assumption can not be dependent on a proof, it has to be dependent on something else. to say that it is dependent on itself is completely circular and meaningless. so it must be dependent on a feeling of how the world is (which is what aristotle was saying when he said they are "self-evident") or it is dependent on nothing, which is to say, arbitrary and artificial. either way, the heart of reason is not rational. Last edited by cardboard adolescent; 01-05-2010 at 02:12 AM. |
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01-05-2010, 01:40 AM | #443 (permalink) |
MB quadrant's JM Vincent
Join Date: Dec 2009
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my brain just short circuited
arguing casual philosophy with another casual philosopher is always fine...but you obviously know your ****, so to say. so barring the basic philosophy 101 books (i've covered as much), can you recommend me some stuff to read?
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Confusion will be my epitaph... |
01-05-2010, 02:01 AM | #444 (permalink) |
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i think choosing what philosophy to read is a very personal matter, because if you can't really relate to an author or their perspective you probably won't really get into their work. personally, the first philosopher i read was bertrand russell, who i liked at the time for his attacks on christianity and very reasonable, straight-forward, common sense way of looking at things. at this point, though, i think he glosses over most of the genuine problems philosophy faces, and often makes his arguments by calling names rather than really challenge the foundations of his own thought. in that regard, nietzsche is great, simply because he is so confrontational. he is all about challenging your beliefs, rather than forcing you to accept his as true. for nietzsche, "beyond good and evil" is a pretty good place to start, although he assumes you have already read a fair number of people. for understanding the western tradition, descartes and kant are pretty essential, as is Hume, but all three are sort of a drag to read, so you're probably best off getting some sort of anthology that covers them. one of my personal favorite philosophers is chuang tzu (Zhuangzi), a chinese taoist philosopher from the 4th century bc, he is very readable, poetic, and insightful. i also really enjoy the presocratics, you can find pretty much everything that survives of heraclitus' works as about two pages online, and zeno's paradoxes are still... paradoxical. reading plato is useful, but not essential. reading about plato will probably do the same.
getting into more modern stuff, Camus is probably the most accessible existentialist (put off reading Sartre as long as possible) but he's not exactly the most logically rigorous. i personally love Hegel but most people find him incomprehensible and I think you really need to follow Kant through to the end to see where Hegel is coming from. Kierkegaard is a great writer, very poetic, but again hard to relate to for a lot of people. i love Baudrillard, Derrida and Zizek, but they're all operating in their own self-enclosed bubbles high up in the clouds, in a sense responding to the death of philosophy. for a good modern recapitulation of "common sense" philosophy, i would recommend the pragmatists, william james is a pretty good writer, for instance. some people find bertrand russell's "history of western philosophy" to be a good place to start, but it's huge, and some people will find it incredibly boring. you could always try to look into an issue you're interested in, find a modern philosopher who deals a lot with it, and try to get their most accessible work, since they'll probably deal with the historical-philosophical progression of that idea. i hope you find this useful, good luck! |
01-05-2010, 03:57 AM | #446 (permalink) |
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The Courage to Be is on my reading list
I must say though, the Milbank section of Monstrosity of Christ is leaving a bad taste in my mouth. Zizek is difficult, but Milbank at times just seems to be spewing gibberish. I'm having a hard time relating to his perspective. |
01-05-2010, 04:17 AM | #447 (permalink) | |
Al Dente
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01-05-2010, 12:39 PM | #448 (permalink) | |
Music Addict
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01-05-2010, 03:13 PM | #449 (permalink) | ||
carpe musicam
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The mind contains knowledge, and the heart experiences feelings, it is no wonder the question of existence breaks down where the mind and heart meet, in the human soul. A human soul reflective of it's Creator, Who is All Loving and All Knowing.
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"it counts in our hearts" ?ºº? “I have nothing to offer anybody, except my own confusion.” Jack Kerouac. “If one listens to the wrong kind of music, he will become the wrong kind of person.” Aristotle. "If you tried to give Rock and Roll another name, you might call it 'Chuck Berry'." John Lennon "I look for ambiguity when I'm writing because life is ambiguous." Keith Richards |
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