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Old 08-20-2009, 09:49 PM   #191 (permalink)
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I believe the universe and everything in it, even our thoughts, is the product of a long chain of fairly predictable events, cause and consequence. I hate it when people say "we're here by accident" - no we're not, the emergence of life on our planet was most likely a highly probable event and it's subsequent evolution is simply a matter of cause and consequence.
You sound like you are contradicting yourself. If you hate the people who say we're here by accident then why bring up Probablity by sayin it's highly probable. Probability needs aberrations or accidents, if it didn't have them it would be a certainty.

Why even bring up Evolution, that needs accidents, too. For Evolution to work, it needs an anomaly to occur in a species that would help it to adapt better to the new environment giving it an edge over those that don't have it. How does these anomalies occur, but by accident. I think you secretly love those people who believe were here by accident, because you are really proving their case for them.
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Old 08-20-2009, 10:14 PM   #192 (permalink)
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I believe in God. I also believe that proving his existence (or non-existence) through science and theory isn't possible, as so many try to do. And while some may consider that foolish and a cop out for believers, I think that's why religion is based on belief because, with proof, you don't need the willpower to believe, it's just the knowing.

That probably made absolutely no sense, but I put it in the best terms I could think of. Feel free to let me know how wrong I am.
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Old 08-20-2009, 11:04 PM   #193 (permalink)
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I believe in God. I also believe that proving his existence (or non-existence) through science and theory isn't possible, as so many try to do. And while some may consider that foolish and a cop out for believers, I think that's why religion is based on belief because, with proof, you don't need the willpower to believe, it's just the knowing.

That probably made absolutely no sense, but I put it in the best terms I could think of. Feel free to let me know how wrong I am.
I do agree with you, and it made sense to me.

I don't believe science and fatih are incompatible. You are right that science isn't possible to prove God, science is only only concerned with what is tangible, the created - things created by God. Still science tells us something about God.

If you believe in God and God created the universe then whatever science reveals of the universe, and how it works, in turn reveals something of the wisdom of God.
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Actually, I like you a lot, Nea. That's why I treat you like ****. It's the MB way.

"it counts in our hearts" ?ºº?
“I have nothing to offer anybody, except my own confusion.” Jack Kerouac.
“If one listens to the wrong kind of music, he will become the wrong kind of person.” Aristotle.
"If you tried to give Rock and Roll another name, you might call it 'Chuck Berry'." John Lennon
"I look for ambiguity when I'm writing because life is ambiguous." Keith Richards
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Old 08-21-2009, 12:02 AM   #194 (permalink)
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You sound like you are contradicting yourself. If you hate the people who say we're here by accident then why bring up Probablity by sayin it's highly probable. Probability needs aberrations or accidents, if it didn't have them it would be a certainty.

Why even bring up Evolution, that needs accidents, too. For Evolution to work, it needs an anomaly to occur in a species that would help it to adapt better to the new environment giving it an edge over those that don't have it. How does these anomalies occur, but by accident. I think you secretly love those people who believe were here by accident, because you are really proving their case for them.
Well, to me, accident implies two things. The first and biggest beef is that to me it means that something goes wrong, there's an unfortunate event that usually includes victims. The second is improbable, we and other organisms try to avoid accidents by avoidance or decreasing the likelyhood of them happening. To say we're here by accident is an extremely common way to put it, but I don't like it. If you do, alright.

You say evolution requires accidents, I don't like to use the term accident there either. While a single mutation may seem accidental, the course of evolution comes nowhere close. I'm not sure how much you know, but there's something called "natural selection" which basically means that what I would regard as the "accidents" over time are removed from the gene pools. If you gain a mutation which is of benefit to you and your fitness, I don't think that qualifies as an "accident" at all. When accident simply implies randomness, I still don't fully agree. Organs like eyes and lungs have evolved independently several times independent of eachother and so are obviously not accidental. On Australia, you have marsupials like the sugar glider but I'm sure that if most people from here saw one, they would think it was a squirrel. Convergent evolution means the aquisition of the same biological traits in different lineages and it happens because evolution is not random. Mutations may be to a large degree, but natural selection isn't. It steers lineages down evolutionary lines that benefit them with greater fitness.

Also as you seem to understand in regards to what you wrote about the universe, if there's a slight chance for a specific mutation to happen, if you give that mutation a billion chances every day for millions and millions of years, it's not necessarily any longer a question of "if" it's gonna happen, it becomes a question of "when". That's what I meant when I wrote the emergence of life was likely a highly probable event. I imagine it had billions of chances to happen and all the time in the world to get it right, so it was not a question of "if", but a question of "when" - which is not what I think of as accidental.
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Old 09-15-2009, 08:20 PM   #195 (permalink)
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I believe in God because I can't not believe in God. I grew up with this belief surrounding me and now that I am grown and able to question my beliefs and my environment, I have found that I cannot function in a world without something bigger than myself to govern it. Call it a failing, but I consider it a strength because I believe religion has served a useful and sometimes necessary function in society. It gives hope during tragedies and catastrophes; provides an answer for unknown mysteries such and death and sacrificial love; it creates unity within cultures and a set of unified moral codes to live by; it allows one to live without having to constantly reassess the basic tenets of the world around you; it creates hope where there is none; answers unanswerable questions; provides a means to ponder the mysteries of life; and helps me to feel that I'm not alone in the world. That some being understands my thoughts and struggles perfectly and cares enough about me to attend to them. That's why I believe there is a God; and to anybody that disagrees I respect and admire your position, because I know I don't have the strength to live without my belief.
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Old 09-16-2009, 03:52 PM   #196 (permalink)
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Here's a simple mind experiment. Where did all the stuff come from. Not the Big Bang - what created the stuff inside the Big Bang before it exploded? The first law of thermodynamics says matter isn't created nor destroyed. Someone eternal had to cause it - named God.
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Old 09-16-2009, 03:54 PM   #197 (permalink)
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Here's a simple mind experiment. Where did all the stuff come from. Not the Big Bang - what created the stuff inside the Big Bang before it exploded? The first law of thermodynamics says matter isn't created nor destroyed. Someone eternal had to cause it - named God.
What created God? Nothing? Well then I guess something can come from nothing so there's no need to postulate a creator for the universe.
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Old 09-16-2009, 04:04 PM   #198 (permalink)
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Janszoon - you're right! Something has to be eternal. Either we believe the atoms in our universe always existed or that an eternal power existed. I think believing that atoms were always here without a creator is pretty ridiculous.
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Old 09-16-2009, 04:18 PM   #199 (permalink)
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Janszoon - you're right! Something has to be eternal. Either we believe the atoms in our universe always existed or that an eternal power existed. I think believing that atoms were always here without a creator is pretty ridiculous.
Why? Believing that something infinitely more complex than the universe could exist without a creator would be infinitely more ridiculous.
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Old 09-16-2009, 04:41 PM   #200 (permalink)
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Why? Believing that something infinitely more complex than the universe could exist without a creator would be infinitely more ridiculous.
The universe, as far as we know, is bound by space and time. It had a beginning, it will have an end, and it is expanding, which means that it is finite. A god, by definition, exists outside of space/time and possibly created it, so it would not need a creator. Which "proves" nothing beyond that a god is a conceptually possible cause for the start of the universe.
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