Indecision 2008 -what do you think????? (member, quote, history)

Son of JayJamJah · 07-20-2008, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by COBHCNick

In July 2001 President Bush pushed for legislation which would allow faith-based groups to recieve public funding. As for one that would be different with Obama, socialized healthcare is a pretty big one. And if you don't believe that, look at what he wants to do with Iraq. If all goes according to plan, we'll be looking at a withdraw in the forseeable future. As opposed to McCains '100 years of Iraq'. I would dispute that, yes. I believe Barack Obamas plans happen to be what a big part of America happens to what to hear due to the past 7 and a half years. I really don't believe he's playing to the choir and a pretty big evidence of that is the fact that he's not accepting donations from special interest groups. His loyalties lie to America. He's even said that he wants to bring back an era of bipartisanship and said he will have republician members in his cabinet. I have no doubt in my mind he will have at least one. At the end of the day he has his policital ideas and he is a democrat, but he's even said that he recognizes that the other side has a point sometimes.

I admire your faith and commitment, needless to say I am a bit skeptical, if Obama promises and delivers on a removal from Iraq I'll be thrilled, and then I'll eat my hat.

Socialized health care is an awful idea (where do you think that money comes from) in my opinion and I think Obama is smart enough to agree, but he does need to sound like he supports it to energize his liberal base. At some point people need to be held accountable for their decisions. All that aside, I'll gurgitate another cap if it happens during his terms.

Double X · 07-21-2008, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayJamJah

Socialized health care is an awful idea (where do you think that money comes from) in my opinion and I think Obama is smart enough to agree, but he does need to sound like he supports it to energize his liberal base.

Obama will raise income tax on people that make over 350k a year. Socialized health care helps people, and I don't see the problem with helping people.

Inuzuka Skysword · 07-21-2008, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Double X

Obama will raise income tax on people that make over 350k a year. Socialized health care helps people, and I don't see the problem with helping people.

It also is taking away the rights of the rich for them to use there own money and not be forced to pay charity. It isn't right at all, and I don't see why somebodies work should forcibly pay someone else.

Double X · 07-21-2008, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inuzuka Skysword

It also is taking away the rights of the rich for them to use there own money and not be forced to pay charity. It isn't right at all, and I don't see why somebodies work should forcibly pay someone else.

Because the poorer people need it and we are all in this country together. While rich people want another beach house in Miami, there are poorer people on the streets who can't go to hospitals because they can't pay for it. How is that fair?

Inuzuka Skysword · 07-21-2008, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Double X

Because the poorer people need it and we are all in this country together. While rich people want another beach house in Miami, there are poorer people on the streets who can't go to hospitals because they can't pay for it. How is that fair?

When you say, "We are all in this country together," you are assuming everyone supports your philosophy so it is almost like bringing religion into politics. No one should be forced to follow your beliefs so no one should have to pay money towards another persons health-care if they don't want to.

Son of JayJamJah · 07-21-2008, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Double X

Because the poorer people need it and we are all in this country together. While rich people want another beach house in Miami, there are poorer people on the streets who can't go to hospitals because they can't pay for it. How is that fair?

Because the rich people (or their parents etc) worked hard so they could own that beach house and the poor people on the streets were either too proud ti ask for help or addicts and likely both.

There are tons of "rich people" who are very philanthropic and create shelters and kitchens and hostels for the temporarily homeless to stay at, they are private programs like the ones here in Detroit, that hire homeless or destitute workers and give them room and board as well as minimum wage pay to help get them on their feet. There are free clinics people can attend, if it's an emergency no hospital will refuse to care for someone and on and on and on. The robin Hood concept seems noble, but this ain't Sherwood Forest, it's real life.

If you think the wealthiest 10% should take care of the rest of the people, then get yourself a time machine and go back to the USSR circa 1965. That's socialism and it's not how America is supposed to work.

Double X · 07-21-2008, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inuzuka Skysword

When you say, "We are all in this country together," you are assuming everyone supports your philosophy so it is almost like bringing religion into politics. No one should be forced to follow your beliefs so no one should have to pay money towards another persons health-care if they don't want to.

I am not too religious.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayJamJah

Because the rich people (or their parents etc) worked hard so they could own that beach house and the poor people on the streets were either too proud ti ask for help or addicts and likely both.

There are tons of "rich people" who are very philanthropic and create shelters and kitchens and hostels for the temporarily homeless to stay at, they are private programs like the ones here in Detroit, that hire homeless or destitute workers and give them room and board as well as minimum wage pay to help get them on their feet. There are free clinics people can attend, if it's an emergency no hospital will refuse to care for someone and on and on and on. The robin Hood concept seems noble, but this ain't Sherwood Forest, it's real life.

If you think the wealthiest 10% should take care of the rest of the people, then get yourself a time machine and go back to the USSR circa 1965. That's socialism and it's not how America is supposed to work.

I'm not advocating for socialism (would not be against it though) but if we can take money from some people to help boost up another class why not. Using that money to get homeless and poor people more work would help this country greatly.

I don't want America in another Gilded Age. The wealthiest are breaking farther and farther away from everyone else at the rest of the American people's expense.

Son of JayJamJah · 07-21-2008, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Double X

I am not too religious.

I'm not advocating for socialism (would not be against it though) but if we can take money from some people to help boost up another class why not. Using that money to get homeless and poor people more work would help this country greatly.

I don't want America in another Gilded Age. The wealthiest are breaking farther and farther away from everyone else at the rest of the American people's expense.

Why should the wealthy be held accountable for that?

What have they done to limit others from obtaining wealth?

If you give people hand outs you take away their motivation, it is not good for the country. You create a sense of entitlement and apathy in people as well. It will only give them a temporary boost as well, it's not as if we can pull the destitute from the ranks of poverty with money. They need a change in lifestyle and attitude first.

The extremely wealthy already give back more then half of their income in taxes and are responsible for more then 3/4 the charitable donations in this country.

When the government takes money it uses it poorly. The biggest problem I have with your idea is that. You are saying you trust the government more then the citizens to do what's right. I don't like that at all.

Government socialized health care is lazy, selfish and ultimately unfair.

Inuzuka Skysword · 07-21-2008, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Double X

I'm not advocating for socialism (would not be against it though) but if we can take money from some people to help boost up another class why not. Using that money to get homeless and poor people more work would help this country greatly.

I understand that you want to help other people in need and I am all for that, but I don't see how it is moral at all to steal from the rich and give to the poor. The fact of the matter is that I don't really care about the country as a whole, and I see myself as an individual in this world. Since I have only one perspective, why should I decide how another person should forcibly give there money away when they don't want to. It isn't a matter of being selfish at all. It is a matter of protecting someones basic rights of doing what they want with their property.

Quote:

I don't want America in another Gilded Age. The wealthiest are breaking farther and farther away from everyone else at the rest of the American people's expense.

The reason is because of the huge amounts of taxes on the middle class, which will increase with socialized health-care. These taxes also stop more people from getting rich, which theoretically stops more people from giving money. This is because in the large middle class, there are probably more people who would give more. If these people were able to get more money, they may give that money away.

Son of JayJamJah · 07-21-2008, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inuzuka Skysword

It also is taking away the rights of the rich for them to use there own money and not be forced to pay charity. It isn't right at all, and I don't see why somebodies work should forcibly pay someone else.

Exactly. People who make 350K only take home about 205K a year already, do they really need to be taxed more? Imagine working for $20 an hour and you take $12 home, that would suck right? I never made 300K a year, hell I don't think I ever made 150K in a year, but I've always had health insurance as long as I've had a family. Why, because I took responsibility for my actions. Health insurance is far less expensive then most peoples car payments, there is no reason to have kids and not have health insurance. And if you don't have children, you really don't need it until your in your mid-late 30's.

Helping people is a good thing, but forcing people to help other people is not.

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