TheBig3

Well I don't know if thats a direct translation but its not far off. Every survivalist, and anarchist, libertarian, and communist, Trotskyite and child in a fight with his father want Ron Paul.

I guess my question is, and your statement begs this, why does a stronger government equate to less freedom?

And please don't pull that pubescent bull**** and say "well I never said it did" cause you did. Stronger government from where Ron Paul sits actually increases freedoms by a large amount in my opinion. I'd like you to show me how I'm wrong.

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bsmix

reservoir dogs?

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The Unfan

The government can't actually grant you freedoms, only limit them. A freedom is the lack of restraint of something. You're free to eat ice cream because there is no restriction on eating ice cream, not because there is specifically a law that states you're permitted to do so.

Inuzuka Skysword

Listen, if you aren't going to even debate using logic, then you are only making yourself look more immature. The fact of the matter is, Ron Paul wants us to have the same freedoms the constitution granted us in the first place. These have been taken from us over time. So no, I am not crying for anarchy, nor am I an an anarchist. Anarcho-Capitalism is a radical libertarian stance. It isn't really anarchy. So before you look any more like and ignorant bastard I would hope you would at least state why the heck you think strong governments are going to help us because society always tends to revolt against them. Look beyond Soviet Russia and look to our revolution. Why the heck do you think we broke away from Britain? It was because a strong government was oppressing us. The bottom line is, we do need to weaken our government, whether you are for a libertarian stance or not. Otherwise, as Ron Paul said, we will become a fascist theocracy. Now I don't agree with the theocracy part so much, but we are going in a fascist direction.

How does government really gain power in this country? By showing people how we enforce laws. Our government does not have the favor of the people anymore. Look at Bush's disapproval rating. While it isn't the whole government, it shows that a lot of people hate our president. Therefore our governments only way of gaining power is to control us through taxes and laws. The whole point of our government is to look at laws and deem them constitutional or unconstitutional. A strong government is only one who has more control over its people. As The Unfan said, a government can only take freedoms away, it can't give them. So how does a stronger government benefit us if it isn't giving us freedoms? It can't.

TheBig3

Well I don't know if I'd want to count it as a "freedom" per say but does the presence of government allow certain things to happen that you'd argue allow you to enjoy other freedoms?

Certainly the government doesn't prevent Murder, but laws dissuade people from doing so, or any number of lesser crimes that might not be prevented otherwise?

Similarly, governments create things like sewer systems, roadways and transit routes that allow us to more easily go places we'd not otherwise be able to do?

Because people hate a lame duck president with roughly 6 months left to term, an executive branch member who does not create laws, laws and taxes are the only ways to control people?

Not to mention this particular executive cut taxes on a regular basis. So how is he using taxes to control us?

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The Unfan

The government can create situations that prevent an attack on freedoms. For instance the constitution prevents even the government from restricting certain freedoms and thus making them more accessible and enjoyable. I think thats the kind of thing you're getting at? If so, yes definitely.

Agreed.

People can create these things without the government. However, the government makes doing this easy.

Actually, I think we're dangerously close to a Christian theocracy as it is. Although I don't 100% agree with the libertarian stance, they're certainly a lot better than what we currently have.

Inuzuka Skysword

No, they aren't, but I was pointing out the main ones. The monopoly on force is another example.

The government is over-taxing us. Just because someone lessens the amount of taxing, it still doesn't mean that we aren't being over-taxed. It just means we are being less taxed than before.

BTW, we also have the lazy congress, which is also hated by a lot of people.

Well, either way, we're screwed.

A lot of people say the same thing. I have a friend who likes the objectivist form of government and while most objectivists hate libertarians, they agree it is better than the current situation.

TheBig3

You're drawing a line between Government and People, which in Democracy is really the same thing.

What makes you think the Christians have any power?

They can't overturn Roe v. Wade while they control the executive, the judicial and both houses of congress.

Censorship is on the run, Stem Cell research is going to be vastly sped up with the next presidency, and homosexuality is more accepted now than ever.

Don't be fooled, stop watch Fox.

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Inuzuka Skysword

The US isn't a democracy. It is a democratic-republic. Two very different things.

The Unfan

Homosexuality is odd in that its both more accepted now than ever and more hated now than ever. Stem Cell research speeding up depends on who gets in. I don't think McCain has any plan on investing in it. Censorship is about the same now as its ever been that I recall. Also, the bill that passed in Louisiana that allows teachers to teach intelligent design as fact and evolution as myth hints toward Christianity gaining more tempo in the education system.