Indecision 2008 -what do you think????? (country, American, Religious, member)

~~The Unfan~~ · 09-14-2008, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WendyCal

QUOTES

Washington probably was a Christian, yes. He did have strong ties to the Anglican church. However, my point wasn't ever that he wasn't a Christian, just that he wasn't outspoken about it and he didn't want America to be a Christian nation. In fact, one of his biggest issues was religious tolerance including ALL RELIGIONS. Outside of that he didn't speak much of his personal faith in public because he didn't want it to be a public issue. So yes, while he was in fact a Christian, he was opposed to a Christian American.

As for Jefferson, those quotes are absurdly off. First off, Jefferson was definitely not a Christian. He believed in a god, certainly. However, he was against all the mysticism and supernatural events in the bible. He believed none of the "miracles" to be true, nor did he believe the bible to be an accurate account in any sense. as is evident by his letters. The list given is pretty extensive, but if you wade through them you'll see that he clearly didn't believe in the Judeo-Christian character God, but more so a natural kind of "god". In fact he even made his own altered version of the bible removing all of the mystical escapism horse ****.

Furthermore I'll requote the one Jefferson "quote" here worth discussing as it is the only one with any slight validity to it, and I can explain away the Christian slant with a bit of ease.

Quote:

“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.” (excerpts are inscribed on the walls of the Jefferson Memorial in the nations capital) [Source: Merrill . D. Peterson, ed., Jefferson Writings, (New York: Literary Classics of the United States, Inc., 1984), Vol. IV, p. 289. From Jefferson’s Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, 1781.]

Upon understanding that Jefferson did not believe in the supernatural nature of God (as I already pointed out, and made clearly evident) you can replace all uses of the word God and with "natural arbitrary creation event" and get the proper meaning behind this (actually its 2 quotes, the first sentence marked in green was from a writing about the boston tea party. The name escapes my mind as I haven't studied this topic since 8th grade) quote. Essentially what he is saying is "Whatever natural event or being created us is pretty ****ing mighty and I tremble in its glory. May the glory of the natural creation never cease to exist" or something to that extent.

Son of JayJamJah · 09-14-2008, 08:15 PM

Ethics and Morality are personal standards that are created as a result of the environment and people who raise the individual.

~~The Unfan~~ · 09-14-2008, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WendyCal

Okay, so what they did was, they took the Lord's Name in vain (called themselves Christians in order to 'get' something, that's the 'vain' part), and then continued the scam by writing up a bunch of drivel that they really didn't believe.

Oh, yeah, i could see that happening...

(Sorry, i'm getting a little tired and grouchy ~ well, and sarcastic...)

Or the founders wanted to seperate from the church of England to, you know, have the freedom to choose what they believe and practice doing so without the government stepping in. Just a hunch though.

Expletive Deleted · 09-14-2008, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WendyCal

In all this time, with all of our scientific know-how, we still can't prove the Theory of Evolution? Yeppers, it's still just a theory, too.

So is this just really bad trolling or what?

ProggyMan · 09-14-2008, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WendyCal

You're wrong about that ~ 52 of the 55 signers of "The Declaration of Independence" were orthodox, deeply committed, Christians. The other three all believed in the Bible as the divine truth, the God of scripture, and His personal intervention. That same Congress then formed the American Bible Society, and immediately after creating the Declaration of Independence, the Continental Congress voted to purchase and import 20,000 copies of Scripture for the people of this nation.

They were Christians.

You keep focusing on whether there is scientific fact to support the Creation Theory, and i've already said that it really doesn't matter ~ you can take that up with all the scientists who DO believe in it.

Our economy was not built on slavery ~ it was built on capitalism. Because of how capitalism works, slavery seemed like a great idea at the time.

But now, here's a little problem i have ~ you don't care if the entire country participates in and condones infanticide, but you're absolutely horrified over slavery. Hmmm. Well, if you're so horrified over slavery, i guess you plan to quit buying anything that you can't make SURE was NOT produced in some sweatshop, right? Unfortunately, capitalism loves cheap labor, so ~ good luck with that!

Actually, we DO stop folks from cutting off their own hands ~ we have them institutionalized if they are considered dangerous to themselves or others. What i just can't seem to come to grips with is how supposedly CIVILIZED people could think, for one second, that murdering children, for the convenience of the mother, is 'right.' What about the rights of that child? Sad, sad doings...

Smart people believing in God doesn't count as scientific evidence. No one denied that smart people believed in God.

sleepy jack · 09-14-2008, 11:59 PM

I'd deny it.

WaspStar · 09-15-2008, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WendyCal

[FONT="Comic Sans MS"][SIZE="4"][COLOR="DarkSlateBlue"]In all this time, with all of our scientific know-how, we still can't prove the Theory of Evolution? Yeppers, it's still just a theory, too.

No one ever claimed that they could "prove" anything with science. There is no "absolute" proof, but theories and laws are far better than mere superstitious guesswork.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WendyCal

So, even if they were all agnostic, they used Christian morals and ethics as a foundation for everything they did. And let's face it ~ who in the world wants to be treated IMMORALLY or UNETHICALLY??? Not me, but, hey, you get to make your own choices.

You are missing the point. The Founding Fathers were not perfect. They did not view women as equals. They did not believe that Native Americans deserved to be treated properly and they supported (if, in some cases, hesitantly) the practice of slavery. They realized their imperfections, which is why the Constitution can be amended.

TheBig3 · 09-15-2008, 02:14 PM

if you go from Urbans "100 things that..." and then to this one you'd swear you were on two different boards.

Double X · 09-15-2008, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Expletive Deleted

So is this just really bad trolling or what?

I'll say. She sounded somewhat moderate at first...but I have a sneaking suspicion she is a bible-thumper.

I mean there is a theory of gravity too, but no one argues that for some reason...

Wifey Boozer · 09-15-2008, 04:24 PM

^I actually once did, in Science class, stoned. My premis was that, some radical mormons don't believe in gravity... and I tried to justify that by demonstration. The demonstration was that I stood in front of my science teacher, and dropped a pencil. I said, "Most people would say that's the work of gravity. But who's to say that isn't an illusion?" I was just trying to be an ass, really. We got a good laugh out of it.

"Girls... they may take your right away. But they will NEVER take your right away to get drunk and fall down a flight of stairs. CUZ YA CAN'T ARREST GRAVITY, ****OS!" -Dave Attel

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09-15-2008, 02:14 PM	#338 (permalink)
TheBig3 killedmyraindog Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Boston, Massachusetts Posts: 11,172	if you go from Urbans "100 things that..." and then to this one you'd swear you were on two different boards. __________________ I've moved to a new address

09-15-2008, 04:24 PM	#340 (permalink)
Wifey Boozer Meanie McFeany Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Troy side'ah the dirt, NY Posts: 455	^I actually once did, in Science class, stoned. My premis was that, some radical mormons don't believe in gravity... and I tried to justify that by demonstration. The demonstration was that I stood in front of my science teacher, and dropped a pencil. I said, "Most people would say that's the work of gravity. But who's to say that isn't an illusion?" I was just trying to be an ass, really. We got a good laugh out of it. "Girls... they may take your right away. But they will NEVER take your right away to get drunk and fall down a flight of stairs. CUZ YA CAN'T ARREST GRAVITY, **OS!" -Dave Attel __________________ ... Stalin had a FANTASTIC** moustache. Formerly known as the Prime Minister of Spain. [backintheubbr]