Pueblos

Nature vs. nurture is worthless while nature is clearly ruling human nature atm. Pointing out exceptions can in fact be counterproductive since it encourages you to ignore the mountains of evidence that nurture rules the vast majority of human history. I don't think that it's impossible to overcome that, but humanity's current approach is not fixing anything anytime quick.

Actually, if it was nurture that would suggest that it could be learned and would make a drastic change more sensible than if you were pressing up against something that's inherent to man.

Sensible does not equal feasible atm. Again, that's pretty clear over the past few thousand years. Yours and elph's points basically sound like, "Wouldn't it be nice if...?"

Nah trust me, it would absolutely be easier to change something that's culturally influenced than something that's physiologically influenced, and I'm pretty sure that the latter would require more baby steps.

That's all theory. Thousands of years of human tyranny are not disapproved by your points. Democracy at this point is still an experiment as far as I'm concerned, and it has not proven itself reliable longterm. I'm not an uber anarchist like OccultHawk, but I do agree that democracy may very well be doomed to failure. At least temporarily.

Democracy in practice mostly justifies Hobbes afaic even if I'm not familiar with Hobbes in detail. His ideas don't sound nice and uplifting to modern sensibilities, but that doesn't mean that he isn't at least partially right. I guess I should read Hobbes if I'm gonna agree with anything he has to say tbh. I guess I should overcome my laziness and at least read some cliff notes.

Thanks. I was just explaining why an exception would be valuable, I'm not trying to make a moral argument.

It's not about morals but pragmatism, and I get that you're not making a moral argument, but the facts of history do not support the idea that humanity can so quickly (as in the last 200 years) switch from tyranny to democracy in an efficient and long term manner. I do believe that democracy, or at least some derivative probably based in post-human ****, is the endgame, but what we have now has not proven to be feasible.

Regardless, the current concept of democracy is the only dog in the fight atm as far as anything that resembles democracy. There may be more or less socialist ideas of democracy throughout the Americas, Europe, and other places, but they're all essentially the same idea. I'd love it if your concept of communism won out in the end, but I simply don't think that's it's at all feasible in anything like a predictable evolution of our current political spectrum.

Honestly I don't think humanity in its current form is capable of it without an inordinate amount of cultural evolution that will inevitably include hundreds of years of strife and ups and downs that will hold us back for god knows how long. Post-human seems like the most efficient answer with increasing a human's mental capacity to just think and understand.