The Wow I Can't Believe That News Story Thread

[The Batlord]

Originally Posted by jadis

I'm talking about a very well-known phenomenon, which I've witnessed for years in a city with four universities and a long and storied history of left-wing student activism (some of which, moreover, I'm really proud of). For the way the rhetorical mechanism of "anti-Fascism" worked throughout the 20th century, see Furet's great book The Passing of an Illusion.

The remark about the French Jew is pretty shameful tbh. As usual, you make presumptions without basis, which is understandable. But I'd be more careful in this particular context.

Oh come on, pussy, it was a joke. And a joke with like a 50% chance of being true, don't lie.

[jadis]

Originally Posted by The Batlord

Oh come on, pussy, it was a joke. And a joke with like a 50% chance of being true, don't lie.

France, where universalism is the official state ideology, has a long history of suppressing the specificity of Jewish victimhood in the Shoah. Some of this "amnesia" has to do with years of minimizing the French role in the deportations, some of it has to do with anti-Semitism in its various guises, some of it has to do with other dynamics specific to French society and various political realities which I have no energy to detail here (Vladimir Jankélévitch's The Imprescriptible is an old text about this that retains much of its power today).

I understand the idea that there are good Jews who are prepared to share their victimhood with others and there are bad Jews, who hoard it to themselves (and are probably Zionists to boot), but in France the reality around Shoah memory carries too much baggage for this joke to not ring hollow.

[The Batlord]

This is more about Europeans hating Romani no matter their politics.

[jadis]

A gentleman who knows his memes

[jwb]

Originally Posted by The Batlord

This is more about Europeans hating Romani no matter their politics.

you did basically say he was a 1930s Jew who was greedily protecting his precious Holocaust victimhood from having to be shared with other groups. Pretty disappointed to see this type of antisemitic rhetoric coming from you, Batlord.

[jwb]

Originally Posted by jadis

Right. The real effect of comparing everything to Nazis and Auschwitz, which is a real hobby for some, is that it obscures the very real dangers posed by the rise in extremism today.

I heard an interview with a Jewish historian of anti-semitism on French radio and he was 1) very concerned about the rise in violence targeting Jews in France today 2) annoyed that some compare it to the 1930s. The situations have nothing in common, he said, and lead people to misunderstand and minimize the uniquely desperate situation of European Jews in the 1930s, who were utterly abandoned and couldn't expect help from any quarter. We live in a different world today that poses its own multiple dangers and those should be assessed in their specificity.

I get it that it's more exciting to think of yourself as an anti-fascist warrior rather than another guy from the suburbs. That's perfectly human. But it's funny to me that the Soviet victory over the Nazis (which fueled the myth of communist anti-fascism in the West and was a reliable tool to recruit useful idiots to the cause) was always a Russian nationalist myth within Russia, with only the thinnest veneer of universalist values even during the Soviet era. Now that it's mobilized by Putin in Ukraine, some of the self-professed anti-fascists are temporarily embarrassed and scrub all the heroic Soviet imagery from their twitter profiles. Wonder if that's the end of that or is it due for another rewarming.

well it's funny you mention the antifascist angle cause a lot of people seem to harken back to this sort of WW2 model for antifascism when trying to find direction for or justifications for elements of the modern antifa ****.

Like one argument I remember hearing a lot a few years back was that it was good strategy to punch Nazis (Richard Spencer) cause we've tried negotiating with them and the only thing they understand is violence. I've specifically heard Vaush make this kind of argument.

But my recollection of history is that all the failed communist coups and all the brawls where communists fought brown shirts in the streets did **** all to prevent the rise of Nazi power. But the USSR did actually take on the lions share of the burden of actually defeating Nazi power. Which is like... Go Russian military industrial complex I guess?

It's funny though, I feel like both modern Russia and modern USA share the same foundational myth , which is beating the Nazis. I feel like we've outgrown 1776 at this point. The modern version of America didn't start until The Fonz was on TV

[The Batlord]

Punching Nazis isn't going to stop fascism if the only resistance is people in the streets punching. If the far right is gaining political power while the left isn't then no amount of punching is going to save you. But if you punch a Proud Boy and that Proud Boy decides to stay home next time that's a small victory. And even if you're not winning the war then community defense can still save lives.

Like I don't even understand your greater point unless that point is just sneering at the left cause you're insecure about people thinking they're better than you. Do you think not punching Nazis will yield better results? Will the Nazis not getting punched realize it's best to sing kumbyaya and hold hands?

[Marie Monday]

Originally Posted by jadis

A gentleman who knows his memes

This is so accurate (at least for people from countries where Romani are common), it's really shocking. You'll talk to some progressive, otherwise intelligent person and when Romani are mentioned they suddenly start to spout the same racist nonsense they normally condemn (including the classic ****ty 'but 90 percent of them are criminals!') and hide behind their progressive image when you confront them. It's infuriating

[Janszoon]

Originally Posted by Marie Monday

This is so accurate (at least for people from countries where Romani are common), it's really shocking. You'll talk to some progressive, otherwise intelligent person and when Romani are mentioned they suddenly start to spout the same racist nonsense they normally condemn (including the classic ****ty 'but 90 percent of them are criminals!') and hide behind their progressive image when you confront them. It's infuriating

For real. I spent a month in Spain this summer and ran into this a few times.

[The Batlord]

Originally Posted by jwb

you did basically say he was a 1930s Jew who was greedily protecting his precious Holocaust victimhood from having to be shared with other groups. Pretty disappointed to see this type of antisemitic rhetoric coming from you, Batlord.

On an unrelated note I'll be dropping a mixtape soon.