The Wow I Can't Believe That News Story Thread

~~jwb~~ · 11-05-2019, 07:01 PM

@ Batlord

I would argue it's not just an empathy problem. We actually have more empathy for countries we're at war with than we did previously.

But it's easy to oppose something you see as egregious when the consequences for your opposition are nil. It's easy to oppose interventionist wars that you view as having a negative affect on us anyway. It's not so easy to ignore Hitler when you fear you will have to deal with his empire in the post war environment.

Which brings us back the conversation on collateral damage. You say if we went to war with another serious world power like China, we would go back to the strategy of total war; maximum chaos and destruction.

In a post 1945 world, that would mean nuclear war. Which risks destroying the planet for humans. Hence why we didn't end up going to war with the Soviets. Where as historically, when the stakes were large, the cold war would've almost certainly turned hot.

Which brings us back to the global US empire. If the stakes of abandoning it are that we live under the heel of China or anyone else, I sorta prefer the current set up. And I think most Americans would feel the same.

Most citizens of any country would probably rather be on the winning side of that sort of arrangement. So that's why the pragmatic concerns are inescapable. Because the alternative could have an actual impact on us that most of us would rather avoid.

Anteater · 11-05-2019, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

the most utilitarian thing would be to put us all out of our misery

when morality is calculated by our AI overlords that's what they'll conclude

Chula Vista · 11-05-2019, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord

It's hard to feel empathy for people we're doing things to or other people are doing things to half a world away and that's not going to change without taking a lot of time (centuries probably at least) training human instinct to process far away problems differently than we currently do.

Half a world away?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45442596

Mindy · 11-05-2019, 08:28 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrjKK8i5Q6E

Quote:

VOA News
Nov 5, 2019

?? Protesters gathered in Hong Kong wearing Guy Fawkes masks, Tuesday, November 5, to mark a month since the colonial-era Emergency Regulations Ordinance prohibiting the use of face covering at protests went into effect, following its announcement by Chief Executive Carrie Lam on October 4.
???? The protesters, most of whom were wearing the white masks, chanted slogans against the Hong Kong police and in favor of democratic reform in the Chinese-ruled territory.
After the flash mob ended, some protesters constructed makeshift barricades and vandalized a nearby restaurant. Hong Kong's economy has been weighed down by months of protests, many of which have turned violent with frequent episodes of radical demonstrators setting fires and vandalizing the public transport system. The protesters accuse Beijing of increasingly interfering with Hong Kong, which returned from British to Chinese rule under a "one country, two systems" formula intended to guarantee freedoms that mainland citizens do not have.
China denies meddling and has accused foreign governments, including the United States and Britain, of stirring trouble. (AFP/Reuters)

The Batlord · 11-05-2019, 08:38 PM

I'm honestly curious what Hong Kong protesters think they're going to accomplish. I'm sure they know a million times better than I do the situation they're in and the date of Hong Kong becoming 100% under Chinese law so what do they think the government that ran over protesters with tanks will do to accommodate them?

~~jwb~~ · 11-05-2019, 08:53 PM

That's similar to asking what did the people in tiananmen square expect to accomplish

When you are faced with an impending tyranny there's only 2 options: resist and risk it all or bend over like a bitch

Mindy · 11-05-2019, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwb

That's similar to asking what did the people in tiananmen square expect to accomplish

When you are faced with an impending tyranny there's only 2 options: resist and risk it all or bend over like a bitch

Chula Vista · 11-05-2019, 08:59 PM

First time I went to Hong Kong it was still under British rule.
Stayed at this place. Pool was on a roof of one level and topless
was totally cool at that time.

https://newworldmillenniumhotel.com/...kaAuPAEALw_wcB

Oh, and it was like 120 degrees with 110% humidity the whole 3 days. Like dangerous stuff.

The Batlord · 11-05-2019, 09:00 PM

But when you have the example of Tienanmen Square to work off of what do you think is going to happen differently? I mean either you think the Chinese government has changed, you think you have something to bargain with that can't be run over, or you start picking up weapons. I haven't seen anything to make me think that the Hong Kongers aren't just assuming that because their rules are different right now that they'll always be different for no smart reason.

Mindy · 11-05-2019, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord

But when you have the example of Tienanmen Square to work off of what do you think is going to happen differently? I mean either you think the Chinese government has changed, you think you have something to bargain with that can't be run over, or you start picking up weapons.

them umbrellas aint it son.... gotta upgrade to offense!

11-05-2019, 08:59 PM	#19448 (permalink)
Chula Vista Toasted Poster Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: SoCal by way of Boston Posts: 11,332	First time I went to Hong Kong it was still under British rule. Stayed at this place. Pool was on a roof of one level and topless was totally cool at that time. https://newworldmillenniumhotel.com/...kaAuPAEALw_wcB Oh, and it was like 120 degrees with 110% humidity the whole 3 days. Like dangerous stuff. __________________ “The fact that we live at the bottom of a deep gravity well, on the surface of a gas covered planet going around a nuclear fireball 90 million miles away and think this to be normal is obviously some indication of how skewed our perspective tends to be.” Last edited by Chula Vista; 11-05-2019 at 09:07 PM.

11-05-2019, 07:01 PM	#19441 (permalink)
~~jwb~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 4,403	@ Batlord I would argue it's not just an empathy problem. We actually have more empathy for countries we're at war with than we did previously. But it's easy to oppose something you see as egregious when the consequences for your opposition are nil. It's easy to oppose interventionist wars that you view as having a negative affect on us anyway. It's not so easy to ignore Hitler when you fear you will have to deal with his empire in the post war environment. Which brings us back the conversation on collateral damage. You say if we went to war with another serious world power like China, we would go back to the strategy of total war; maximum chaos and destruction. In a post 1945 world, that would mean nuclear war. Which risks destroying the planet for humans. Hence why we didn't end up going to war with the Soviets. Where as historically, when the stakes were large, the cold war would've almost certainly turned hot. Which brings us back to the global US empire. If the stakes of abandoning it are that we live under the heel of China or anyone else, I sorta prefer the current set up. And I think most Americans would feel the same. Most citizens of any country would probably rather be on the winning side of that sort of arrangement. So that's why the pragmatic concerns are inescapable. Because the alternative could have an actual impact on us that most of us would rather avoid.

11-05-2019, 08:53 PM	#19446 (permalink)
~~jwb~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 4,403	That's similar to asking what did the people in tiananmen square expect to accomplish When you are faced with an impending tyranny there's only 2 options: resist and risk it all or bend over like a bitch