The Wow I Can't Believe That News Story Thread

[Anteater]

Originally Posted by MicShazam

Ah. Just 2 billion for his crazy symbolic fascist wall building project. Trump is a reasonable man after all. It's not like 2 billion is a heck of a lot of money and could be put to real use somewhere else.

The Democrats wanted to send ten times that much to both Mexico and South America with no apparent oversight on how the money would actually be spent.

Look at it this way: if Trump is doing a better than you at describing what he wants 2 or 5 billion for and you can't tell me what your actually going to do with 20 billion for "foreign aid", there's a problem there.

Originally Posted by Dharma & Greg

**** compromising with and appeasing a race baiting sociopath. No wall, no question.

I'll give it a 50/50 chance of happening.

[Lisnaholic]

Originally Posted by Anteater

1. A shutdown always seems to happens when two sides disagree on a key issue. I'm praising Trump on this particular shutdown because it became obvious that the Democrats wanted to fly off to Puerto Rico rather than come up with a deal. They were the ones who "caved" by putting Trump into a position where he could shut down the government in the first place. It's like "guys, you were willing to send 20 billion to Mexico and South America without batting an eye. If he wants 5 billion let him have it and then use the whole debacle against him in 2020". But noooooo, "Hey, lets shut down the government and let Trump set the stage to do crazier things later. I'm sure that won't blow back on us at all later on..."

^ Given that in the end Trump approved the deal that was already on the table from Day One, the shutdown achieved nothing except misery for Fed workers and a massive economic downturn. I can't see much to praise in that.

Basically, I believe their reaction to Trump's stubbornness came off as ridiculously dumb. They sound nicer on T.V. because they're all rehearsed, but they're everything that's wrong with our political system. They took their salaries and flew off to chill with celebrities instead of trying to outsmart the POTUS or make a deal sooner.

^ I imagine politicians largely choose how rehearsed they want to be before making public statements. TBH I think that Dems sound nicer because they have at their disposal facts, empathy, logic and humane policies. Trump comes up blank on all of those qualities - that's really why he suffers so much in comparison.

2. Trump sought funding for the Wall back in 2017 as well and Democrats + RINOs couldn't come up with a good deal then either: didn't even make it to the Senate. And all he asked for back then was 2 billion.

^ That seems to bear out the folly of Trump's demand for wall funding. The Mexicans wouldn't fund his wall. For two years a Republican Senate and Republican House wouldn't fund his wall. He should've realised that the Dems wouldn't either. Why was he even asking them to? He'd have a better chance if he called in a favour from his pals, Derapaska and Putin, and asked them to fund his wall.

3. Considering the fact that Trump was already in the process of passing a bill to provide backpay to workers effected by the shutdown, it is safe to say that the timeline supports my version of events as opposed to yours. He never intended it to go on beyond a month's time. He thought they'd either cave or push him to Operation: National Emergency. Otherwise, the timing of him signing a bill for backpay to federal workers is too coincidental.

^ So when he said the shutdown could go on for "months, even years" what was that, some see-through negotiating ploy that failed? I don't understand how his incompetence at judging his opponents and his refusal to heed his advisors has become part of your argument for praising Trump's shutdown.

4. Fed workers always get the short of the stick during a shutdown. Does everyone despise Bill Clinton retrospectively when he shut down the government for relatively petty disagreements in the mid 90's? Of course not. The same will be true of this. It's just another petty bump in the road, just instead of Bill Clinton screaming about education moneys its Trump wanting to fulfill another campaign promise.

^ I thought Trump's comment about Fed workers, "They'll make adjustments. They always do" was one of the most callous, out-of-touch dismissals of other people's suffering that I have ever heard. Your comments in bold run it a close second tbh.

5. "I didn't notice either of them working full-time to develop methodologies that work" doesn't mean anything. My point still stands. Plus, you need to take media coverage of any given event or narrative with a grain of salt. None of those reports have any clue what McConnell or anyone else was working on. CNN isn't living in his sock drawer.

^ It's true that I rely on a couple of mainstream channels for my US news, but even senators were asking where McConnell was, and by Mitch's own admission he effectively abandoned all pretence of marshalling the Senate so that it was a third voice in the negotiations. Until Day 33, by his own declaration, his basic position was to wait and rubber-stamp whatever Trump told him to.
__________________________________________________ _________________________

Limited research again, but this was an appraisal I heard this morning on CNN about post-shutdown Trump: "His popularity fell even furthur... he comes out of this much weaker ... with much less ability to move forward"
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And finally, just a couple of the most obvious shortcomings to a border wall that Trump is failing to address:-


"It's a tunnel... where we have a wall already" >>

Other probs relate to eminent terrain land purchase and the stats on where and how immigrants and drugs arrive in the US: for drugs, mainly the coasts, the controlled crossing points and airports, and in the case of illegal immigrants, the Canadian border is actually more porous. That's how Melania started working in the US without the requisite permissions I believe. Even if that's not true, the overall figures will mitigate strongly against Trump's notion that there is a national emergency at the southern border, especially as illegal border crossings there are close to a historical low at the moment. Trump's wall is a non-solution to a non-problem.

[MicShazam]

Originally Posted by Anteater

The Democrats wanted to send ten times that much to both Mexico and South America with no apparent oversight on how the money would actually be spent.

I don't know anything about that, so I'd have to read up on it to know if I agreed with your version of what happenend. Either way, a bad democrat plan does not make an entirely different bad Trump plan better.

[Anteater]

Being at a "record low" doesn't mean it isn't a problem. He's going to have to bring some some compelling information outside of the mainstream narrative on that subject to justify an emergency. We have all kinds of problems: there's no precedent to calling something an emergency just to wiggle around a stalemate.

One angle he has could be in relations to taxes. Illegal immigrants pay in around 12 billion a year in various ways, but get paid out nearly double that. But the wall doesn't do anything about that (seeing as they're already here), so his only argument is one of deterrence.

Going back to Lisna for a minute...

^ Given that in the end Trump approved the deal that was already on the table from Day One, the shutdown achieved nothing except misery for Fed workers and a massive economic downturn. I can't see much to praise in that.

There was no "deal" on the table Day One. Nobody could agree on anything. But again: do you support flying off to Puerto Rico even though you let the government get shutdown just because you suck at negotiating with a former reality TV star? The Democrats are supposed to be the better / smarter adults in the room here, right? I can plainly say that Trump isn't empathetic in most respects. But that just makes his opponents even look more reprehensible when they let things get to the point of a shutdown then do nothing about it for a month.

I could be like some of these people and whine about Trump all day on Twitter. But my response to Democrats is "Okay, great we can agree he's being a dick....so ****ing do something about it instead of flying off for a beach vacation while hundreds of thousands of your constituents can't pay their bills".

^ I imagine politicians largely choose how rehearsed they want to be before making public statements. TBH I think that Dems sound nicer because they have at their disposal facts, empathy, logic and humane policies. Trump comes up blank on all of those qualities - that's really why he suffers so much in comparison.

Bit of a correlation without causation thing going on here, but moving on....

^ That seems to bear out the folly of Trump's demand for wall funding. The Mexicans wouldn't fund his wall. For two years a Republican Senate and Republican House wouldn't fund his wall. He should've realised that the Dems wouldn't either. Why was he even asking them to? He'd have a better chance if he called in a favour from his pals, Derapaska and Putin, and asked them to fund his wall.

It wasn't out of the question. They were willing to negotiate on wall funds before in exchange for complete amensty for DACA recipients. But Trump knows giving amnesty just means tens of thousands of new people who will vote Democrat in 2020. Hence why he tried a different approach here.

^ So when he said the shutdown could go on for "months, even years" what was that, some see-through negotiating ploy that failed? I don't understand how his incompetence at judging his opponents and his refusal to heed his advisors has become part of your argument for praising Trump's shutdown.

Trump uses hyperbole in a very casual way because it evokes an emotional response in his opposition. He knows what will push their buttons in a rhetorical sense...and it actually works more often that not. In this case, Pelosi and Schumer didn't take the bait. He does the same thing a lot on Twitter, and because his whole approach to rhetoric is what the courts would call "speculative" in nature, he hasn't been sued every time he opens his thumbs.

^ I thought Trump's comment about Fed workers, "They'll make adjustments. They always do" was one of the most callous, out-of-touch dismissals of other people's suffering that I have ever heard. Your comments in bold run it a close second tbh.

See my previous comments about him signing that bill and why I don't think he planned to stretch it for more than a month in the first place. Don't get emotional on me when we are trying to have a discussion about bloodless political schemes.

^ It's true that I rely on a couple of mainstream channels for my US news, but even senators were asking where McConnell was, and by Mitch's own admission he effectively abandoned all pretence of marshalling the Senate so that it was a third voice in the negotiations. Until Day 33, by his own declaration, his basic position was to wait and rubber-stamp whatever Trump told him to.

Having spent a decent part of my own life in the media world before I got into business, I can assure you that Mitch was probably doing more than twiddling his thumbs. Trump didn't tell them how long he was going to stretch it out but they jumped all over the backpay bill like ugly on a catfish. Question is, what will they do 3 weeks from now?

[Lisnaholic]

Originally Posted by Anteater

Being at a "record low" doesn't mean it isn't a problem. He's going to have to bring some some compelling information outside of the mainstream narrative on that subject to justify an emergency. We have all kinds of problems: there's no precedent to calling something an emergency just to wiggle around a stalemate.

One angle he has could be in relations to taxes. Illegal immigrants pay in around 12 billion a year in various ways, but get paid out nearly double that. But the wall doesn't do anything about that (seeing as they're already here), so his only argument is one of deterrence.

^ Well, I'm happy to be able to agree with most of that, Anteater. I can see that there is a problem, a constant irritant at the southern border. As I read once, it's the longest land border where the First World and the Third World butt up against each other, so there are bound to be various tricky issues arising. But tricky issues need carefully nuanced solutions. Trump is like a surgeon walking into an operating theatre with a sledge hammer, instead of a scalpel.

[The Batlord]

I almost wanted to feel good about the Democrats for once but I killed that feeling with a horny Catholic priest and a broken glass condom. Still shocked they didn't roll over.

[DwnWthVwls]

Originally Posted by OccultHawk

I have a house? Where the **** is it????

Have you looked near your teaching career?

[The Batlord]

In the ghetto?

[Lisnaholic]

Originally Posted by Anteater

There was no "deal" on the table Day One. Nobody could agree on anything.

^ That is factually incorrect. According to this article, dated Dec 12, https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...al/2336303002/ :-

McConnell followed up with the offer of a short-term spending bill, and Pelosi said House Democrats would support it.

On or about the same day Mike Pence announced that Trump would sign off on the same package as well. That looks like a deal to me, until Trump abdicated to Ann Coulter and did a u-turn. Don't try re-writing history. There was bipartisan agreement to keep the government open which Trump alone scuppered.

The Democrats are supposed to be the better / smarter adults in the room here, right? I can plainly say that Trump isn't empathetic in most respects. But that just makes his opponents even look more reprehensible when they let things get to the point of a shutdown then do nothing about it for a month.

I could be like some of these people and whine about Trump all day on Twitter. But my response to Democrats is "Okay, great we can agree he's being a dick....so ****ing do something about it instead of flying off for a beach vacation while hundreds of thousands of your constituents can't pay their bills".

^ You seem to be grumbling that the Dems should show forebearance because Trump is so wayward. That's not the role of the opposition. Better to demand that the Republicans stop enabling the loose cannon that they have sacrificed their integrity to.

Don't get emotional on me when we are trying to have a discussion about bloodless political schemes.

^ I appreciate the fact that we can discuss politics without personal animosity so if you think I breached that arrangement, I apologize. On the other hand, politics is far from bloodless. It affects lives and sometimes costs lives. Federal workers are people, so please don't fall into Trump's way of thinking of them as pawns in a bloodless political scheme.

Having spent a decent part of my own life in the media world before I got into business, I can assure you that Mitch was probably doing more than twiddling his thumbs.

^ Dems living in idle bliss in Puerto Rico, Mitch toiling away unseen, do you have any proper evidence for either claim? From the start the Dems made their position clear, and for weeks at a time the Trump camp offered no real alternative. Were the Dems supposed to hover at his door like supplicants hoping for Trump's next utterance? Even I know that's not the art of the deal.

[Anteater]

Originally Posted by Lisnaholic

^ That is factually incorrect. According to this article, dated Dec 12, https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...al/2336303002/ :-


On or about the same day Mike Pence announced that Trump would sign off on the same package as well. That looks like a deal to me, until Trump abdicated to Ann Coulter and did a u-turn. Don't try re-writing history. There was bipartisan agreement to keep the government open which Trump alone scuppered.

That article clearly mentions an "11th hour" spending bill that McConnell proposed that the Democrats rejected. McConnell's second proposal wasn't greeted warmly either. Senor Trump steps in and asks for the 5 billion. Pelosi and Schumer said no. Boom, shutdown. Whatever Pence said or didn't say is irrelevant.

^ You seem to be grumbling that the Dems should show forebearance because Trump is so wayward. That's not the role of the opposition. Better to demand that the Republicans stop enabling the loose cannon that they have sacrificed their integrity to.

They should, because if they had done so then people would have gotten their paychecks earlier. All they needed to do was take Trump's offer in regards to DACA and tweak it in their favor.

Like I said, somebody has to be the adult in the room. What were they going to do if Trump decided to go beyond a month of keeping the government closed? They had no plan at all.

^ I appreciate the fact that we can discuss politics without personal animosity so if you think I breached that arrangement, I apologize. On the other hand, politics is far from bloodless. It affects lives and sometimes costs lives. Federal workers are people, so please don't fall into Trump's way of thinking of them as pawns in a bloodless political scheme.

Unfortunately, there isn't a single politician that really cares about their constituents in any party. Not even people like Ocasio-Cortez. Otherwise they wouldn't take salaries month after month during periods where fed employees aren't being paid....all at the expense of the taxpayer who always gets screwed first and foremost. Or fly to Puerto Rico to go see Hamilton with hundreds of corporate lobbyists under the pretense of providing "guidance" to the local government.

^ Dems living in idle bliss in Puerto Rico, Mitch toiling away unseen, do you have any proper evidence for either claim? From the start the Dems made their position clear, and for weeks at a time the Trump camp offered no real alternative. Were the Dems supposed to hover at his door like supplicants hoping for Trump's next utterance? Even I know that's not the art of the deal.

This avant-garde slice of photography comes to us courtesy of National Geographic: "Democrats Hard At Work With Corporate Lobbyists On Day 22 of Trump's Shutdown"