Music Banter

Music Banter (https://www.musicbanter.com/)
-   Current Events, Philosophy, & Religion (https://www.musicbanter.com/current-events-philosophy-religion/)
-   -   Immigration (https://www.musicbanter.com/current-events-philosophy-religion/28935-immigration.html)

adidasss 03-04-2008 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ComingUpRoses (Post 451058)
immigrants work like 10 times harder than any american citizen. they take the jobs we don't want, and they aren't paid well either. We should at least respect that if not anything else

Well that's what I always thought, but maybe there's something else to it...*unsure*

sleepy jack 03-04-2008 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by savannah (Post 451055)
when you say 'we' what exactly are you refering to? and call it what you will,...i know what it is

as for texas joining the union, i'm not denying that slave votes might have had a hand in the vote,....but the issue of texas's independence happened about a decade before we even considered joining the union,...so to say that had it not been for slaves we would have automatically been a 'state' is preposterous

I find your attitude towards Mexicans funny considering your signature.

right-track 03-04-2008 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by savannah (Post 451050)
that was a different time,....and a different situation

texas was a territory,....and likening texas' independance to the imagrations acts of today is ignorant,....sorry right track, i really like you and normally agree with you, but in this case,....i just think your wrong

Fair enough.
I just think the whole attitude to immigrants seems a little hypocritical.

Your thread on the little Mexican boy has spawned a monster topic.

simplephysics 03-04-2008 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by right-track (Post 451063)
Fair enough.
I just think the whole attitude to immigrants seems a little hypocritical.

Your thread on the little Mexican boy has spawned a monster topic.

because its alot hypocritical.
America has a good way of enscrewing the whole "Do as i say and not as I do" thing

savannah 03-04-2008 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adidasss (Post 451054)
I thought illegal immigrants aren't in the system therefore the government doesn't actually spend any money on them...*unsure*
Are you saying all or most illegal immigrants are lazy and live off the state somehow? I'm really rather ignorant here so don't take this the wrong way, I really want to know...


no sir,..i'm not saying that at all,...

in fact, when i was in high school i sold peaches at a road side stand during the summer,......there is a large orchard in the town i grew up, and most high school kids did the same,....
because of this i was around many of the illegal immigrant workers,.....they would come here for the season and make enough money to live in mexico for the rest of the year,......the same workers would come back year after year, and after awhile i built up friendships with many of them,....they were all great, hardworking, family guys who were just tryin to make some money to feed their wives and kids,.....and while i find that honorable,....and like many of them,....it is still wrong

as for paying for them,.....the majority of revenue that is spent on them is health care,.....also, most of them will buy illegal social security numbers,....they often obtain welfare this way,....
so we are paying for them,....

sweet_nothing 03-04-2008 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crowquill (Post 451060)
Than why bother repeating it?

IDK, wasn't thinking clearly. This same debate happened on the last community i was on, did not end well. Facist moderators ended up banning people who think differently than them.

savannah 03-04-2008 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crowquill (Post 451062)
I find your attitude towards Mexicans funny considering your signature.

as i find your attitude funny seeing as how your not even old enough to vote,...fight for your country,.....nor have you been in the work force long enough to see your hard earned tax dollars ill spent

swim 03-04-2008 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by savannah (Post 451055)
when you say 'we' what exactly are you refering to? and call it what you will,...i know what it is

as for texas joining the union, i'm not denying that slave votes might have had a hand in the vote,....but the issue of texas's independence happened about a decade before we even considered joining the union,...so to say that had it not been for slaves we would have automatically been a 'state' is preposterous

OK OK, I was really talking about the Mexican war, you know the James K. Polk thing where we got california and everything and the border was pushed to rio grande. I hate Manifest Destiny. I think the Texas Revolution is a different monster while I believe that people moving there as soon as Mexico won it's independence is wrong I also believe in Popular Sovereignty.

right-track 03-04-2008 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ComingUpRoses (Post 451065)
because its alot hypocritical.
America has a good way of enscrewing the whole "Do as i say and not as I do" thing

I was toning my stance down. It seems savannah has enough on her plate without me adding to it.

sleepy jack 03-04-2008 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by savannah (Post 451068)
as i find your attitude funny seeing as how your not even old enough to vote,...fight for your country,.....nor have you been in the work force long enough to see your hard earned tax dollars ill spent

I'm sorry as an American citizen I thought I had freedom of speech or at least the freedom to recite history which everyone seems to be conveniently ignoring. Jack Kerouac would be disgusted with your attitude.

right-track 03-04-2008 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sweet_nothing (Post 451067)
IDK, wasn't thinking clearly. This same debate happened on the last community i was on, did not end well. Facist moderators ended up banning people who think differently than them.

You won't get banned for having an opinion, just don't whinge when someone blasts you for it.

swim 03-04-2008 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by savannah (Post 451066)
.also, most of them will buy illegal social security numbers,....they often obtain welfare this way,....
so we are paying for them,....

I find this to be an internal problem with how we operate rather than an immigrant problem. I mean legal citizens can buy a duplicate ss to obtain benifits.

savannah 03-04-2008 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by right-track (Post 451063)
Fair enough.
I just think the whole attitude to immigrants seems a little hypocritical.

Your thread on the little Mexican boy has spawned a monster topic.

why? poncho (who's real name is tyler) maybe half mexican,...but he parents are legal as is he,....he was born here, makeing him an american just as much as anyone,.....

besides i wouldnt let my feelings twards immigration askew befriending a little boy,.....

i'm not racist,....i just have a problem with the influx of illegal immigration,....

there's also the issue of national security that no one has brought up,....
its not just that i dont want everyone hopein the borders and draining the welfare system,....alot of are immigration laws are set up to keep the deviants out

adidasss 03-04-2008 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by savannah (Post 451068)
as i find your attitude funny seeing as how your not even old enough to vote,...fight for your country,.....nor have you been in the work force long enough to see your hard earned tax dollars ill spent

So it's better to spend your hard earned tax dollars on war and killing than on Mexicans?

savannah 03-04-2008 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crowquill (Post 451073)
I'm sorry as an American citizen I thought I had freedom of speech or at least the freedom to recite history which everyone seems to be conveniently ignoring. Jack Kerouac would be disgusted with your attitude.


you do have that right,...and i applaud you for useing it as so many young people just dont care,...
but i also have the right to tell you what i think about it

savannah 03-04-2008 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swim (Post 451076)
I find this to be an internal problem with how we operate rather than an immigrant problem. I mean legal citizens can buy a duplicate ss to obtain benifits.

it IS an internal problem but one that relates directly to the issue we are discussing

savannah 03-04-2008 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adidasss (Post 451078)
So it's better to spend your hard earned tax dollars on war and killing than on Mexicans?

the war is a totally different issue,....and one that i will not get off into here

however, i will say, our tax dollars are spent on much more than use funding the millitary,....and war,...

we have hungry needy AMERICANS that could use that help as well,....
and while i will admit, supporting illegal aliens is not the only way our tax dollars are illspent,...it is the one that directly relates to the issue we are discussing

sleepy jack 03-04-2008 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by savannah (Post 451083)
we have hungry needy AMERICANS that could use that help as well,....
and while i will admit, supporting illegal aliens is not the only way our tax dollars are illspent,...it is the one that directly relates to the issue we are discussing

And we're doing a totally good job of housing and supporting them.

savannah 03-04-2008 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crowquill (Post 451073)
. Jack Kerouac would be disgusted with your attitude.


i got too caught up and didnt get to respond to this statement the way i'd like,....

i enjoy kerouac's words, just as i enjoy the music of the hippie movement,....i can identify with and read/listen/watch many things that i necessarily agree with whole heartedly,.....
so this statement really bares not on me,.....as i'm sure there's many thing that kerouac might have done that would disgust me as well,.....

my political and eithical views can be quite different from the things i expose myself too

swim 03-04-2008 05:57 PM

Why do Americans have more right to land that we have no ancestorial connection with while Mexicans clearly do?

savannah 03-04-2008 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crowquill (Post 451085)
And we're doing a totally good job of housing and supporting them.

read the whole statement,....i'm not saying that we are perfect,...

crowey baby,...why do you hate america so much?
you could move you know,....imagrate somewhere else,....just do it legally

savannah 03-04-2008 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swim (Post 451091)
Why do Americans have more right to land that we have no ancestorial connection with while Mexicans clearly do?

if that is your arguement then none of us should be here,.....

adidasss 03-04-2008 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by savannah (Post 451092)
,....just do it legally

I'm not sure what you know of that process, but it's not very easy to get into America legally...;)

swim 03-04-2008 06:01 PM

It's not an arguement. It's a clear question that I don't understand. I think Manifest Destiny and Imperialism are wrong. Why do we have a birthright to land that they don't? It's really not just America that has these problems..



Hi Alex!

savannah 03-04-2008 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adidasss (Post 451096)
I'm not sure what you know of that process, but it's not very easy to get into America legally...;)

so,..just because its hard makes it ok to just hop on over here?

savannah 03-04-2008 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swim (Post 451098)
It's not an arguement. It's a clear question that I don't understand. I think Manifest Destiny and Imperialism are wrong. Why do we have a birthright to land that they don't? It's really not just America that has these problems..



Hi Alex!


lol i guess because we won,...

adidasss 03-04-2008 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by savannah (Post 451099)
so,..just because its hard makes it ok to just hop on over here?

I'm speaking from a viewpoint of someone who is rather well off and doesn't need to emigrate, but I think before judging them too harshly, you should consider that they do that out of sheer desperation...that's all really.

I should also note that I do sort of agree with you, you can't have an open door policy, those days are long gone, but clearly they aren't taking your jobs and the money spent on them can't be as significant as you make it out to be.

Night all, have fun.;)

savannah 03-04-2008 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adidasss (Post 451105)
I'm speaking from a viewpoint of someone who is rather well off and doesn't need to emigrate, but I think before judging them too harshly, you should consider that they do that out of sheer desperation...that's all really.

I should also note that I do sort of agree with you, you can't have an open door policy, those days are long gone, but clearly they aren't taking your jobs and the money spent on them can't be as significant as you make it out to be.

Night all, have fun.;)


i too, have no need to emigrate, and while i understand the humanitarian view point,...i would also like to point out i'm not judgeing them as people, i'm judgeing what they do to the economy
i understand that what they are doin is often out of desperation,...however why not reform their own country?

anyway,...i'm gonna bow out of this for the time being,......supper's here,....

swim 03-04-2008 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by savannah (Post 451101)
lol i guess because we won,...

yea that's never really done it for me. I kind of have a lot of philosophical issues with the concept of ownership but that really is a different topic.

I've been reading Kropotkin. =/ As if i wasn't a already a big bag of red and yellow.

adidasss 03-05-2008 02:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by savannah (Post 451107)
i too, have no need to emigrate, and while i understand the humanitarian view point,...i would also like to point out i'm not judgeing them as people, i'm judgeing what they do to the economy
i understand that what they are doin is often out of desperation,...however why not reform their own country?

anyway,...i'm gonna bow out of this for the time being,......supper's here,....

How can the poor and uneducated reform their own countries?

savannah 03-05-2008 03:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adidasss (Post 451286)
How can the poor and uneducated reform their own countries?


how else do countries get overthrown?

adidasss 03-05-2008 05:03 AM

You mean governments? Well, people have been overthrowing governments in Latin America for decades now, but I don't see their situation improving...meaning, it takes a lot to better the economic situation of a certain country. Most people can't wait that long to improve their lives...

Oh and by the way...:
Quote:

Just a small fraction of America's health care spending is used to provide publicly supported care to the nation's undocumented immigrants, according to a RAND Corporation study issued today.

Overall, immigrants to the United States use relatively few health services, primarily because they are generally healthier than their American-born counterparts, according to the study by the nonprofit research organization.

The report – which appears in the November edition of the journal Health Affairs – estimates that in the United States about $1.1 billion in federal, state and local government funds are spent annually on health care for undocumented immigrants aged 18 to 64. That amounts to an average of $11 in taxes for each U.S. household.

In contrast, a total of $88 billion in government funds were spent on health care for all non-elderly adults in 2000.
You really can't spare those 11 dollars?

Farfisa 03-05-2008 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by savannah (Post 451017)
roger that

Who is this Roger you speak of??

tkpb938 03-05-2008 07:43 AM

This is my take on immigration: The government does not have the right to prevent anyone from going anywhere. period. Especially not when all they are trying to do is make enough money to feed their families. All us Americans are so facking decadent and lazy it would be good for us to have a slight drain in our economy anyway.

savannah 03-05-2008 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adidasss (Post 451301)
You mean governments? Well, people have been overthrowing governments in Latin America for decades now, but I don't see their situation improving...meaning, it takes a lot to better the economic situation of a certain country. Most people can't wait that long to improve their lives...

Oh and by the way...:
You really can't spare those 11 dollars?


first that study is almost a decade old,..
and second thats documented cases

adidasss 03-05-2008 09:41 AM

Ok, do you have any recent relevant data?

savannah 03-05-2008 09:56 AM

i regret that i dont have numbers right here in front of me,.....
let me see what i can find you

The Unfan 03-05-2008 05:36 PM

Slightly off topic but still relevant. The three things all first world countries have are technological wealth, a strong medical field, and good crop resources. These three things create the most job opportunities and long term markets. So I theorize that if we want to actually help Mexicans in the long run, we'd be better off helping them in the technological and scientific fields, including medical. Simply by introducing genetically engineered crops it'd probably create a market boom and create new job opportunities. Now imagine what other sciences could bring and you'd have them doing well. For a country to succeed it needs to be up to date on the evergrowing markets, and those markets are rooted in science. Also, another financially stable country would help commerce and better global economy so it helps more than just the mexicans in a way.

So if honestly helping other people is what we want to do than I'd suggest offering them some of what keeps the top nations on top. If we want to fix immigration laws, I'd say be more lax about it. If we are to be the land of the free, as we often suggest, I'd say being more open to immigration would be a positive thing.

Also, I'd be up for spending 11 dollars to help a stranger.

TheBig3 03-06-2008 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swim (Post 450982)
ah, America, we'll take your land after you're damn broke from winning your independence and make sure you have to go through hell to come back here.

Yeah I wasn't sure what the implication was here either.

But since I'm the devils advocate. Doesn't it make sense that the country with the money and the health care system and the workers benefits gets the land?

Or did you want them to just have more land they didn't want to be in. Or maybe you just wanted Oklahoma to be a border state?

Is your problem with our immigration policy or is it with our manifest destiny?

djchameleon 03-06-2008 09:00 AM

I think she said earlier that her problem is with manifest destiny but I'll let her go into more detail about it

also The Unfan....that's a good idea in theory but there would also have to be an education system in place to support those technical professions


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:37 PM.


© 2003-2025 Advameg, Inc.