The Official Iraq War thread (country, show, quote, Kora)

[boo boo]

You can't delete this one, its official.

And Ethan has given me the OK and he will observe this thread carefully to make sure it dosen't get out of hand, lets keep our cool with these discussions, Ethan will delete any posts that cross the line.

I'm gonna pick up from where we left off on the sex offender thread.

Originally Posted by Alexander the Grape

Don't give us that bull****. Of course Iraq was doing bad under Saddam Hussein, and of course he was a horrible leader who committed horrible atrocities against his people.

That is not why we invaded Iraq.

So what? Is that a reason not to do anything about it at all?

I don't care why we went, I dont agree with the timing or the conditions of the war or how it was executed. But I believe that Saddam should have been dealt with eventually, and who else would have? The UN? Don't make me laugh.

If it was then we would be in Darfur, hell probably most of Africa, right now saving those people from fates at least as bad as those the Iraqis suffered under Saddam. We would also be in North Korea, Iran, etc, all the countries that have worse political systems than ours.

We went to war with Iraq under false pretenses, this is true. Our main concern was getting Osama Bin Ladin and somehow it changed to Iraq for very superficial reasons. Maybe they didnt have WMDs (though I know for a fact they had chemical weapons at their disposal, which was used on the Kurds during the Iraq-Iran war) but they were in the process of making Nuclear and Biological weapons, it would have taken a long time for them to have become a truly serious threat, but its a good thing we didnt let it get to the state that Iran and North Korea is now, whom we should have dealt with first, and a long time ago I might add.

The main point, regardless of our intentions, deceptions and mistakes. Removing Saddam from power was a very good thing, and while establishing a democracy admist the civil war that has emerged has proven to be a big obstacle, leaving Iraq in its current state would be absolutely insane. It would cause massive devastation to our reputation and it would make matters even worse for Iraqi civilians.

On a side note, I thought I was the only person who thought Saddam shouldn't have been put to death, until I saw the Henry Rollins show the other day. Even a lot of people who are supposedly against the death penalty seem to think that an exception should have been made for Saddam.

I don't know how anyone could justify keeping him alive other than for one reason. Information, but then again, it was Saddam Hussein, his stubborness was legendary and he probably wouldn't have been much use to the Iraq goverment. They did kinda rush his execution though.

[sleepy jack]

I did approve of this

/pointless post but just wanted to make this clear and give boo boo backing on that

Carry on, stay friendly everyone posts will be deleted if name calling, flaming etc gets out of hand.

[The Unfan]

Originally Posted by boo boo

leaving Iraq in its current state would be absolutely insane. It would cause massive devastation to our reputation and it would make matters even worse for Iraqi civilians.

Going in caused massive damage to our reputation. At this point both toughing it out or leaving would look bad regardless. Expand on what you think the probable outcome of either decision would be?

[boo boo]

Originally Posted by The Unfan

Going in caused massive damage to our reputation. At this point both toughing it out or leaving would look bad regardless. Expand on what you think the probable outcome of either decision would be?

For one, the Bagdad police force is still underdeveloped, so they still need us around for social services.

Toughing it out, well, it puts more troops at risk. And thats something I hate to say, but if we were to leave right now, then the various casualties truly would have been in vain. We should weigh it out until we achieve what we said we were going to do.

People criticize our involvement because they think in the long run Iraq will return to a theocratic Islamist state, but I only see this happening if we leave Iraq in its current state, if we leave now, than this is what the radical Islamists will think. We came to Iraq for oil, we kill many Iraqis, we say we were going to do something we never did because of peer pressure from the left (whom Islamists dispise more than anyone) and leave Iraq with an underdeveloped goverment and a unresolved civil war we inadvertently started. If we wait until we assure that the Iraqi goverment is good and ready, we can happly say that Islamists will only hate us for those first two reasons.

Extremists just look desperately for excuses to hate America, if we stay, they will hate us for occupying their country, if we leave, they will hate us for leaving their country in ruins and not doing anything to help them. And that would be even worse.

But helping them is difficult, and why? Because some of them show their appreciation by blowing themselves up (and even blowing their children up) and killing our troops, why do we put up with it? I have no idea. Even if we did invade Iraq just for oil, well, that dosen't matter anymore, we're trying to help them now, and it would be easier if the Sunnis and Shi‘ites weren't so goddamn emo.

[Frances]

Originally Posted by boo boo

Islamists just look desperately for excuses to hate america, if we stay, they will hate us for occupying their country, if we leave, they will hate us for leaving their country in ruins and not doing anything to help them. And we insist on helping them even though they continue to blow themselves up and kill our troops, if we ever do leave early, its will probably be because we've gotten fed up with their bullsh*t.

Islamists? I hope you mean extremists.

[boo boo]

Islamism is the term used for Muslim politics. Which itself is extremism any way you look at it.

[Frances]

Originally Posted by boo boo

Islamism is the term used for Muslim politics. Which itself is extremism any way you look at it.

All muslim politics are extreme?

[boo boo]

Look. I have no problem with Islam as a religion.

But isn't it a little hypocritical how some lefties try to stop Christian influence in politics, but have no problem with Islamic theocracy? Which is even worse.

Muslims political beliefs are much more conservative than Christians, now imagine that if you will. This is not generalization, its fact, the Koran is simply based on conservative moral standards, just like the Bible. But the disregard for civil rights when it comes to women, homosexuals, jews, and secular religions is much worse. We shouldn't have tollerance for ideologies based on intolerance and oppression, this is why everybody hates Evangelical Christians, so why is it all of a suddon bigoted to call out Islam for its teachings about women and homosexuals? A double standard if you ask me.

Hell, all you have to do is observe the laws of Middle Eastern countries that are ruled by Muslim theocracy. Most of the freedoms we take for granted in America are nowhere to be seen. And Women and Homosexuals have it the worst.

[Frances]

Hypocritical?

Hypocritical is saying
"Islamists just look desperately for excuses to hate america".
Then saying, "Islamism is the term used for Muslim politics. Which itself is extremism any way you look at it".
Then changing your post.
Then saying "Look. I have no problem with Islam as a religion."

[boo boo]

I changed "Islamist" to "Extremist" because it was appropiate, I also change my posts frequently because I'm a perfectionist (OCD) when it comes to getting my point accross.

And you fail to understand the difference between tollerating a religion and tollerating a religions politics. My views with Muslim politics have little to do with Islam as a religion, if Muslims think women should be treated like real estate then thats fine by me, but such points of view shouldn't influence goverments to enforce laws that strip women of almost every human right imaginible. For the same reasons I don't think Christians should have any influence on our goverment, because I don't think Religion and Politics should mix, I'm a strong believer in the Seperation of Chuch and State. I'm also a fair guy.