The Official Iraq War thread (rock, American, quote, Ching)

[boo boo]

You can't delete this one, its official.

And Ethan has given me the OK and he will observe this thread carefully to make sure it dosen't get out of hand, lets keep our cool with these discussions, Ethan will delete any posts that cross the line.

I'm gonna pick up from where we left off on the sex offender thread.

Originally Posted by Alexander the Grape

Don't give us that bull****. Of course Iraq was doing bad under Saddam Hussein, and of course he was a horrible leader who committed horrible atrocities against his people.

That is not why we invaded Iraq.

So what? Is that a reason not to do anything about it at all?

I don't care why we went, I dont agree with the timing or the conditions of the war or how it was executed. But I believe that Saddam should have been dealt with eventually, and who else would have? The UN? Don't make me laugh.

If it was then we would be in Darfur, hell probably most of Africa, right now saving those people from fates at least as bad as those the Iraqis suffered under Saddam. We would also be in North Korea, Iran, etc, all the countries that have worse political systems than ours.

We went to war with Iraq under false pretenses, this is true. Our main concern was getting Osama Bin Ladin and somehow it changed to Iraq for very superficial reasons. Maybe they didnt have WMDs (though I know for a fact they had chemical weapons at their disposal, which was used on the Kurds during the Iraq-Iran war) but they were in the process of making Nuclear and Biological weapons, it would have taken a long time for them to have become a truly serious threat, but its a good thing we didnt let it get to the state that Iran and North Korea is now, whom we should have dealt with first, and a long time ago I might add.

The main point, regardless of our intentions, deceptions and mistakes. Removing Saddam from power was a very good thing, and while establishing a democracy admist the civil war that has emerged has proven to be a big obstacle, leaving Iraq in its current state would be absolutely insane. It would cause massive devastation to our reputation and it would make matters even worse for Iraqi civilians.

On a side note, I thought I was the only person who thought Saddam shouldn't have been put to death, until I saw the Henry Rollins show the other day. Even a lot of people who are supposedly against the death penalty seem to think that an exception should have been made for Saddam.

I don't know how anyone could justify keeping him alive other than for one reason. Information, but then again, it was Saddam Hussein, his stubborness was legendary and he probably wouldn't have been much use to the Iraq goverment. They did kinda rush his execution though.

[sleepy jack]

I did approve of this

/pointless post but just wanted to make this clear and give boo boo backing on that

Carry on, stay friendly everyone posts will be deleted if name calling, flaming etc gets out of hand.

[The Unfan]

Originally Posted by boo boo

leaving Iraq in its current state would be absolutely insane. It would cause massive devastation to our reputation and it would make matters even worse for Iraqi civilians.

Going in caused massive damage to our reputation. At this point both toughing it out or leaving would look bad regardless. Expand on what you think the probable outcome of either decision would be?

[boo boo]

Originally Posted by The Unfan

Going in caused massive damage to our reputation. At this point both toughing it out or leaving would look bad regardless. Expand on what you think the probable outcome of either decision would be?

For one, the Bagdad police force is still underdeveloped, so they still need us around for social services.

Toughing it out, well, it puts more troops at risk. And thats something I hate to say, but if we were to leave right now, then the various casualties truly would have been in vain. We should weigh it out until we achieve what we said we were going to do.

People criticize our involvement because they think in the long run Iraq will return to a theocratic Islamist state, but I only see this happening if we leave Iraq in its current state, if we leave now, than this is what the radical Islamists will think. We came to Iraq for oil, we kill many Iraqis, we say we were going to do something we never did because of peer pressure from the left (whom Islamists dispise more than anyone) and leave Iraq with an underdeveloped goverment and a unresolved civil war we inadvertently started. If we wait until we assure that the Iraqi goverment is good and ready, we can happly say that Islamists will only hate us for those first two reasons.

Extremists just look desperately for excuses to hate America, if we stay, they will hate us for occupying their country, if we leave, they will hate us for leaving their country in ruins and not doing anything to help them. And that would be even worse.

But helping them is difficult, and why? Because some of them show their appreciation by blowing themselves up (and even blowing their children up) and killing our troops, why do we put up with it? I have no idea. Even if we did invade Iraq just for oil, well, that dosen't matter anymore, we're trying to help them now, and it would be easier if the Sunnis and Shi‘ites weren't so goddamn emo.

[Frances]

Originally Posted by boo boo

Islamists just look desperately for excuses to hate america, if we stay, they will hate us for occupying their country, if we leave, they will hate us for leaving their country in ruins and not doing anything to help them. And we insist on helping them even though they continue to blow themselves up and kill our troops, if we ever do leave early, its will probably be because we've gotten fed up with their bullsh*t.

Islamists? I hope you mean extremists.

[boo boo]

Islamism is the term used for Muslim politics. Which itself is extremism any way you look at it.

[Frances]

Originally Posted by boo boo

Islamism is the term used for Muslim politics. Which itself is extremism any way you look at it.

All muslim politics are extreme?

[Bane of your existence]

I feel kinda obligated to post in this thread, but there's no kind of good debate going yet.

[right-track]

This thread needs to get back on topic quick.

While the war in Iraq is interlinked to religion, I think it best for the thread, that posters stick to political discussion and leave religion out,
unless for the sole purpose of making a political point.
Otherwise, the thread will spiral (as usual) into a debate about the existence of God, which is not what this thread is about.

[Alexander the Grape]

boo boo, have you read the Qur'an? I haven't, and I don't think you have either. From what I've heard, though, from people who have actually read it, it seems like it is as self-contradicting as the Bible. Therefore, not all Muslims hold those beliefs that you are bashing "Muslim politics" for. Just as not all Christians are radical fundamentalists, neither are all Muslims. Some Christians are pro-homosexuality and pro-abortion, while others are not. If you talk to most Muslims living in the United States, you will find that they probably don't believe women are property, just as most Christians don't (even though the Bible says that).

Originally Posted by boo boo

I don't think Christians should have any influence on our goverment

What? Yes they should, this is a democracy.

Yes, this has to do with the Iraq war, because boo boo seems to be implying that just because Islam has the potential for sexism and homophobia (just like Christianity does) Muslims in the Middle East shouldn't be allowed to govern themselves. Obviously the elections in Iraq have proven that democracy is elusive in the Middle East. I don't think us staying there will in any way be able to change that. We tried to establish a democracy, it didn't work, sending more troops and staying there longer isn't going to magically fix that.

Originally Posted by boo boo

But isn't it a little hypocritical how some lefties try to stop Christian influence in politics, but have no problem with Islamic theocracy? Which is even worse.

I've never heard any "lefty" say anything close to that. But I don't think an Islamic theocracy is worse than a Christian theocracy. They are both equally horrible. I'd be interested in reading the Qur'an, because it seems to be strikingly similar to the Bible. Of course, if I check it out at my library I will have FBI agents tapping my phone and ****.

Ok, I have a lot more to say, but I've already typed way too much. Currently with the Iraq war we are ****ed either way. Problems will happen if we leave, but they're happening while we're there, and to a greater magnitude. A lot of the violence is happening because we are there, and I don't think we'll ever get it under control. Therefore, we should pull out before we just cause more problems, since we aren't doing any good right now. And that whole "pulling out will damage our reputation" thing is crap. Why the hell is our reputation worth the lives of thousands of US soldiers and even more Iraqi civilians? And like the Unfan said, our reputation was ****ed the moment we invaded Iraq when most of the world told us not to. A reputation doesn't count for ****, either way.

I thank you for not using the whole "if we leave the terrorists will follow us home" line that the conservatives love, because that is obviously total bull****.