What do people think of Vivaldi?

Plankton · 06-03-2013, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anathematized_one

Yes I play several instruments and never played any of "Four Seasons". I don't have to play it to hear that it lacks any genuine expression of feeling.

I play: guitar, bass, violin, viola, cello, double bass, harmonica, harp (to include full 47-string concert pedal harp) and various percussion instruments (timpani, djembe, various single-drum instruments, melodic toms).

Either way... nobody needs to be able to play or even know music history or theory to hold my position on the piece, so whether or not I do play, compose or have studied any of it academically should be entirely irrelevant.

I can appreciate skill, but I can't bear to listen to technical music that lacks expression and you don't need to play or study to hear that there is none beyond kitschy, empty fluff.

Can you give an example of something that you feel has genuine expression of feeling? Like BD, I'm trying to get an understanding of where you're coming from as well.

anathematized_one · 06-03-2013, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plankton

Can you give an example of something that you feel has genuine expression of feeling? Like BD, I'm trying to get an understanding of where you're coming from as well.

Sure, an example first for Vivaldi:

And now another baroque composer, Händel:

And Mozart since I compared my views on Vivaldi to him:

Finally, a compare and contrast in a different but related genre.

First, Jason Becker. When I listen to this song, I get imagery in my head of an Egyptian pharaoh who is just nnot having a good day and all these different talents like court jesters or jugglers try to entertain him and they fail and finally this Queen Nefertiti-esque woman walks in and suddenly he is happy:

And now a Yngwie Malmsteen wank-fest. When I listen to this, I get absolutely no imagery, even when taking into consideration the song title, in fact when I think of the song title and any sense that one could mean by Leviathan, this musoc doesn't at all come close to matching it:

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Plankton · 06-03-2013, 01:27 PM

The Jason Becker link is broken, but know his stuff. The Leviathon video is blank, but I know the song (luckily you'd mentioned it). One of my favorites, where he rides on the edge of a hexatonic blues scale. You obviously have very distinct tastes.

Also, I'm not sure if you were meaning to post music that HAS feeling or not. I'm a bit confused. To you, which ones of the videos you posted have feel and which ones don't?

anathematized_one · 06-03-2013, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plankton

The Jason Becker link is broken, but know his stuff. The Leviathon video is blank, but I know the song (luckily you'd mentioned it). One of my favorites, where he rides on the edge of a hexatonic blues scale. You obviously have very distinct tastes.

Also, I'm not sure if you were meaning to post music that HAS feeling or not. I'm a bit confused. To you, which ones of the videos you posted have feel and which ones don't?

All the ones I posted have feeling/genuine expression except Leviathan. Leviathan technically complex and magnificently played, expresses nothing.

The Jason Becker was supposed to be "Eleven Blue Egyptians".

Now don't get me wrong, I do think Vivaldi and Mozart are amazing, but that most of their most popular pieces are their worst ones.

Like if you ask if Michaelangelo was a master artist, most would say yes assuming he is and cannot say why. Even then most only know about the statue of David or the Cistine chapel abd that just basically is not doing justice to his true magnificence. There is so much more to the statue or the chapel than what mosy realise and there are many other works which are equally as phenomenal.

Or people praising Warhol as a great artist, despite the fact that Warhol himself even said his soup cans were not art and basically all of his pop art was one giant trolling od the art community (Warhol - "You can put anything on canvas these days and people will think it is art"). The only reason he did it was to make money to fund what he really wanted to do in art, the stuff nobody ever talks about or knows exists.

This is basically how I feel about "Four Seasons"

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Plankton · 06-03-2013, 05:07 PM

Ok, I think I understand you now. And I get it.

From a personal standpoint, the Becker song (as most of them are, but there are exceptions to Jason) is quite a bit of chromatic/ionian/myxolidian wankering to me, as opposed to the Yngwie tune. They both show their teeth on the chops as best as they only know how, but when Leviathon hits at 2:27 and on until the end of the solo, its quite exraordinary to find that in his style and approach, which in turn gives it a bit more feel IMO.

Don't want to turn this into a Becker vs Yingwee thread so I'll leave it at that. I do get what you are saying though... Don't believe the hype!

anathematized_one · 06-03-2013, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plankton

Ok, I think I understand you now. And I get it.

From a personal standpoint, the Becker song (as most of them are, but there are exceptions to Jason) is quite a bit of chromatic/ionian/myxolidian wankering to me, as opposed to the Yngwie tune. They both show their teeth on the chops as best as they only know how, but when Leviathon hits at 2:27 and on until the end of the solo, its quite exraordinary to find that in his style and approach, which in turn gives it a bit more feel IMO.

Don't want to turn this into a Becker vs Yingwee thread so I'll leave it at that. I do get what you are saying though... Don't believe the hype!

Again, that is all technicalities. Listening, what imagery is there, what does it say? What does it make me feel? That is why I hate Four Seasons as opposed to other works.

It doesn't matter what key or scale or way things are used - does it portray something real or is it stereotypical, emotionless dead nothingness?

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Burning Down · 06-03-2013, 08:46 PM

I wouldn't say it's emotionless - emotion is always there in some way or another - but perhaps the emotions are just bland/typical of such a piece? Maybe the true emotions and feelings are lost in the midst of all the "sound diarrhea".

However, I can always appreciate the skill that is displayed by musicians who play this music.

anathematized_one · 06-04-2013, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burning Down

I wouldn't say it's emotionless - emotion is always there in some way or another - but perhaps the emotions are just bland/typical of such a piece? Maybe the true emotions and feelings are lost in the midst of all the "sound diarrhea".

However, I can always appreciate the skill that is displayed by musicians who play this music.

Well I wouldn't call it "sound diahrrea"...

Just that the form of expression is trite and kitschy, like saying of love, "your one true love"...

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Burning Down · 06-04-2013, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anathematized_one

Well I wouldn't call it "sound diahrrea"...

Just that the form of expression is trite and kitschy, like saying of love, "your one true love"...

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I thought that's what you had been implying, with all the "technical wankery" stuff. Better than no expression at all, though.

anathematized_one · 06-05-2013, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burning Down

I thought that's what you had been implying, with all the "technical wankery" stuff. Better than no expression at all, though.

No... that's why I said more than once that complexity or technicality is not bad or the problem and that, as in my first post, I do like Vivaldi but I feel that people treat him like Mozart and many others and that "Four Seasons" was trite (lacking power to evoke interest through overuse or repetition; hackneyed; dull; lacking in freshness or effectiveness because of constant use or excessive repetition) and kitschy (effusively or insincerely emotional; tawdry, vulgarized, or pretentious art, literature, etc., usually with popular or sentimental appeal; something of tawdry design, appearance, or content created to appeal to popular or undiscriminating taste) and that he had far better works yet that's the only one people typically know.

When I say technical wankery, I mean as differentiated from other technicality. Basically a mindless showing of skill as opposed to technical music that expresses something real.

06-03-2013, 01:27 PM	#43 (permalink)
Plankton Just Keep Swimming... Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: See signature... Posts: 7,765	The Jason Becker link is broken, but know his stuff. The Leviathon video is blank, but I know the song (luckily you'd mentioned it). One of my favorites, where he rides on the edge of a hexatonic blues scale. You obviously have very distinct tastes. Also, I'm not sure if you were meaning to post music that HAS feeling or not. I'm a bit confused. To you, which ones of the videos you posted have feel and which ones don't? __________________ See location...

06-03-2013, 05:07 PM	#45 (permalink)
Plankton Just Keep Swimming... Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: See signature... Posts: 7,765	Ok, I think I understand you now. And I get it. From a personal standpoint, the Becker song (as most of them are, but there are exceptions to Jason) is quite a bit of chromatic/ionian/myxolidian wankering to me, as opposed to the Yngwie tune. They both show their teeth on the chops as best as they only know how, but when Leviathon hits at 2:27 and on until the end of the solo, its quite exraordinary to find that in his style and approach, which in turn gives it a bit more feel IMO. Don't want to turn this into a Becker vs Yingwee thread so I'll leave it at that. I do get what you are saying though... Don't believe the hype! __________________ See location...

06-03-2013, 08:46 PM	#47 (permalink)
Burning Down The Music Guru. Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Beyond the Wall Posts: 4,858	I wouldn't say it's emotionless - emotion is always there in some way or another - but perhaps the emotions are just bland/typical of such a piece? Maybe the true emotions and feelings are lost in the midst of all the "sound diarrhea". However, I can always appreciate the skill that is displayed by musicians who play this music.