Ian Moore

Where would a discussion about Stockhausen go? Experimental/avant garde or classical forum?

DriveYourCarDownToTheSea

Probably classical, I think.

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Holerbot6000

They have an adumbration that is a sub-category of Classical called '20th Century Composers' that covers guys like Stockhausen and Harry Partch and John Cage. I think if those guys were still playing today, they'd probably be releasing CD's on the Tzadik label and be considered more Avant-Garde than Classical, so I guess it's a matter of history and perspective.

Zack

To be fair, the term "experimental," in musicological and formally musically-educated generally has more of a Cagean flair to it, is in, the result is not determined, in some respect, whether composition or performance, so that the piece has an unknown result, thus, is an "experiment."

In more informal, general public circles, the term "experimental" seems to just mean, "sounds weird to me."

But, as far as I know, Stockhousen was not much of an experimentalist. He had ideas, and he set them forth in a structured, succinct manner. He may be old stuff now, but I think he could generally be considered equally as Avant Garde (for his time) or 20th century composition.

You'll find very few "classical" musicians who very willing apply that term to anything out of the common practice era. I might describe, say, Xenakis to someone who only listens to popular musics as "classical," and be accurate, in a musicological, pop-folk-classical sense, but inside the realm of "classical" most would not consider the disenfranchizing composers of the mid-twentieth century to be "classical." Then there's the difference between "Classical" the period, and "classical," the rigorous musical lineage.

Holy semantic satiation of the word "Classical."

Ummm, but I think Stockhausen could go either place, but might be more at home, given the general community on MB, over in "20th Century."

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Frownland

And then there's the term avant-garde. Pretty sure that label fits Stockhausen like a glove.

Zack

Here's the thing about "Avant Garde." It literally means, "Advance Guard," or in other words, people at the current, cutting edge of new, usually artistic innovation. I mean, if you want to get technical about it, Beethoven was about as Avant Garde as it gets, back in his day. Haydyn's Symphony No. 94 was Avant Garde several decades earlier. Wagner was Avant Garde. So were the Beatles.

But none of that is at the forefront of new ideas, anymore. Some of it's still pretty cool, but it's all been done and done and done and sounds "Classic." Generally, to be avant garde, I'd say you still have to be ahead of the general body in terms of innovation.

Stockhausen certainly WAS Avante Garde back in the '50s, '60s, and even '70s, but I'm not sure that stuff really can be counted as contemporary Avant Garde, since people have been building on those "classics" for a few generations, now.

I suppose there's a case to be made for his later works up until his death a few years ago, but honestly, the stuff that was really innovative to most people was his early electronic work, when that kind of stuff just wasn't around.

That said, in a less rigorous sense, both "experimental" and "avant garde" are popularly used to signify "unusual," so...

I still kinda think he might fit best in 20th century, since I find him cropping up everywhere in "History of 20th Century Music" type stuff, and very little in "Cutting Edge of 21st Century Music" things.

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Zack

It must be a VERY slight adumbration. I cannot find it... Donde?

(Also, I am unjustifiably happy that you used the word, "adumbration." I had to look it up, which is always delicious.)

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grindy

Stockhausen does have aleatoric pieces. Although he might have disliked the term "experimental" describing his work, it wouldn't be completely out of place.

I'm trying to think of music of today, where the term avant-garde would be truly fitting. Nothing comes to mind. There obviously is a lot of wonderful, creative stuff being played and composed though.

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Zack

True. I'm pretty sure every History of Music Textbook opens the section on "Aleatoric" music with something like. "So there's the dude Stockhausen who wrote a piece called "Klavierstuck" that had parts that could be played in any order. (read George Lewis's essay on the racism possibly inherent in that term next time you're up for being depressed. Also, "Indeterminism.")

And true, I'm pretty sure most of the "experimental" composers dislike the term, similarly to the minimalists hating the term "minimalist." Seems to be a trend!

BUT, I don't think most people would say that he was mostly into indeterminacy. So, I suppose a discussion of his aleatoric compositions would fit nicely in experimental music, technically, if his serialism and canned compositions were excluded. But the composer as a whole? I don't think he really fits...

True. I think Avant Garde is so seeped with connotations of the bizarrely esoteric, disenfranchising classical-lineage works of the mid-20th century, that we feel like it has to be even "wierder" and more "out" for it to be truly avant garde. Which, to be fair, is pretty impossible once you've had decades of people saying, "All noise is music, and strange sounds are the most musical of music."

But, Avant Garde really pertains to music that hasn't been done before, that is now being created. A good deal of Post Metal likely fits that bill. It's weird, it's out, it combines elements of atonalism, free jazz, prog rock, and odd sound effects and melds it all into a twisted mixture of metal and pop and classical and jazz and folk that really hasn't been done before.

But also, it doesn't have to be weird to be Avant Garde. Brian Eno, I would make the case, was extremely avant garde back in the day. I mean, people in the "Serious" music world assumed his early ambient stuff was a joke, and congratulated him on mocking such simple, bland music. But he meant it seriously, and I'll be damned if he didn't start something new. Same goes for Glass and Reich. Their music was so palatable it got them derided for simple-mindedness, but again, it was new, and it was avant garde.

I'd say a good deal of true Avant Garde music is currently coming from less "serious" musical traditions, from people who are saying both, "music doesn't have to be what you already know," but also, "It's still art even if it sounds good." Kaki King's more recent stuff, for example. It's pop. People who like Top 40 listen to it. But it's new and different from what came before.

Hell for that matter, there's a case to be made for the American Style Dubstep ala Skrillex...

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Zack

Oh, But Ian? I apologize for derailing your thread. This is a forum for people to banter about the music they love (or loathe!) not a convention of musicologists and pedants. I think you're Stockhausen thread is probably fine and will have equal reception in either "Classical" or "Experimental/Avant Garde," and hopefully you've already gone ahead and posted it, rather than wasting your time reading our pointless babblings and blabbings.

I just like to ramble...

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The Passage of... ------- (Classical Synth)
Danceables ------- (Dance Synth with a Latin Flair)
Meanderings ------- (Classical Synth)
Raven ------- (Rock Opera)