Trout Mask Replica vs. The Velvet Underground & Nico

SATCHMO · 04-21-2013, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thinkofthechildren

Sure trout mask is more avant garde and innovative, and VU&nico is technically generic, yet its the most unique music, lyrics, emotion and sounds you will ever hear. Everything on VU&nico has been done before it was released and after, but why is it seen as one of the bench-points of alternative music, of avant garde, when actually its neither? You can explain trout mask replica, it is groundbreaking. You cannot explain VU&Nico.

I really think it's entirely unjustified to assert that in 1967, when VU&Nico was released, that every songwriting element present on the album had been done before without backing up that statement with some examples of songs, artists, or genres which VU borrowed from. Extraordinary claims deserve extraordinary evidence.

Conversely, what is so groundbreaking about Trout Mask Replica? What makes it a much more innovative album than Velvet Underground & Nico?

Thinkofthechildren · 04-21-2013, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SATCHMO

I really think it's entirely unjustified to assert that in 1967, when VU&Nico was released, that every songwriting element present on the album had been done before without backing up that statement with some examples of songs, artists, or genres which VU borrowed from. Extraordinary claims deserve extraordinary evidence.

Conversely, what is so groundbreaking about Trout Mask Replica? What makes it a much more innovative album than Velvet Underground & Nico?

Firstly, the song structures. Pop music at its core. Then with the sound, Bob Dylan, psychedelia, garage, and of ofcourse traiditonal rock n roll, it had all been done before. VU&Nico was nothing new in 1967. I mean really only one track I feel can only be compared to the avant gardeness of an an actual avant garde record, e.g. TMR, is the song Black Angels Death song and also I guess the subject matters. The beauty of VU&Nico is it perfected songwriting, or atleast conventional songwriting. It has an 'x-factor' if you will, which is unexplainable, which is why it seen as groundbreaking.

Describing TMR, its cold, its analytical, because you can easily dissect why it is avant garde or groundbreaking. You cannot with VU&Nico. And I'd rather opt for the album with genuine emotion rather the indifference that a TMR causes with me, and probably everyone else.

This is the same with Psychocandy by Jesus and Mary Chain but not VU&nico's extent.

SATCHMO · 04-21-2013, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thinkofthechildren

Firstly, the song structures. Pop music at its core. Then with the sound, Bob Dylan, psychedelia, garage, and of ofcourse traiditonal rock n roll, it had all been done before. VU&Nico was nothing new in 1967. I mean really only one track I feel can only be compared to the avant gardeness of an an actual avant garde record, e.g. TMR, is the song Black Angels Death song and also I guess the subject matters. The beauty of VU&Nico is it perfected songwriting, or atleast conventional songwriting. It has an 'x-factor' if you will, which is unexplainable, which is why it seen as groundbreaking.

Describing TMR, its cold, its analytical, because you can easily dissect why it is avant garde or groundbreaking. You cannot with VU&Nico. And I'd rather opt for the album with genuine emotion rather the indifference that a TMR causes with me, and probably everyone else.

This is the same with Psychocandy by Jesus and Mary Chain but not VU&nico's extent.

I think the problem is that I entirely misread your original post. I actually agree with 90% of what you're saying, but I do think that VU can be credited for some innovation. Everyone draws from a pool of influences; It's just an inescapable fact, especially today, but what they did remarkably well was to take a lot of disparate resources and combine the best elements of each into a style that was uniquely their own. To me, what they produced was more like a repurposing than a rehashing, like 'found' music, the musical embodiment of Warhole's stolen art with an image that screamed rock & roll. In this case imitation is innovation and not just flattery.

...but I still can't handle Nico's voice.

Thinkofthechildren · 04-22-2013, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SATCHMO

I think the problem is that I entirely misread your original post. I actually agree with 90% of what you're saying, but I do think that VU can be credited for some innovation. Everyone draws from a pool of influences; It's just an inescapable fact, especially today, but what they did remarkably well was to take a lot of disparate resources and combine the best elements of each into a style that was uniquely their own. To me, what they produced was more like a repurposing than a rehashing, like 'found' music, the musical embodiment of Warhole's stolen art with an image that screamed rock & roll. In this case imitation is innovation and not just flattery.

I agree with all of this.

Also, I'll give TMR its dues. Theres definitely some amazing tracks on that album, Ella Guru, Hair Pie Bake etc, but look, there is not one song on TMR that is better than Sunday Morning, Heroin, Venus in Furs, All Tomorrow's parties, I'll be your mirror, Black Angels death song. But I guess TMR is about the album as a 'collective' and sure that argument is valid, but as a collective VU&Nico is a GAGGILION times better anyway. It goes through every single emotion on an emotional spectrum, because it crosses so many genres. Every song on TMR pretty much makes me feel the same, no emotional diversity because all I got through my head is "this is cool because its different".

SATCHMO · 04-23-2013, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thinkofthechildren

I agree with all of this.

Also, I'll give TMR its dues. Theres definitely some amazing tracks on that album, Ella Guru, Hair Pie Bake etc, but look, there is not one song on TMR that is better than Sunday Morning, Heroin, Venus in Furs, All Tomorrow's parties, I'll be your mirror, Black Angels death song. But I guess TMR is about the album as a 'collective' and sure that argument is valid, but as a collective VU&Nico is a GAGGILION times better. It goes through every single emotion on a emotional spectrum, because it crosses so many genres. Every song on TMR pretty much makes me feel the same, no emotional diversity.

Yeah, and There;s really nothing to connect with. Well, maybe Frownland, but that's about it.

TLP · 08-14-2013, 04:36 PM

I love Trout Mask Replica, but TVU&N is one of my favourite albums ever made, so it gets my vote.

GravitySlips · 08-20-2013, 01:40 AM

Apparently I voted on this before, but who knows.

I hope it was for Beefheart! Trout Mask has aged considerably better for me than this Velvet Underground record.

joeybarten · 08-24-2013, 07:37 AM

Velvet Underground no contest for me. I like Beefheart but struggle with that record.

Akai · 03-28-2017, 08:01 AM

Trout mask for me every time;

Cant say no to a record recorded in one take with cardboard on the crash symbols in one house being religiously rehearsed for 8 months straight

''Speckled speculation Fedlocks waddlin’ feast Archaic faces frenzy Ceramic fists artificial deceased ‘n cists rancid buds burst”

Lisnaholic · 03-28-2017, 11:59 AM

^ HaHa! Welcome to MB, Ziggy.

Did you vote? because at the moment TMR is trailing in the poll:

"...it's a trailing tail. It's traipsin' along behind the blimp the blimp
The nose has a crimp. The nose is limp the blimp
It blows the air, the snoot isn't fair
Look up in the sky - there's a dirigible there!"

View Poll Results: Choose.
Trout Mask Replica (1969)	29	44.62%
The Velvet Underground & Nico (1967)	36	55.38%
Voters: 65. You may not vote on this poll

03-28-2017, 11:59 AM	#90 (permalink)
Lisnaholic ...here to hear... Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: He lives on Love Street Posts: 4,444	^ HaHa! Welcome to MB, Ziggy. Did you vote? because at the moment TMR is trailing in the poll: "...it's a trailing tail. It's traipsin' along behind the blimp the blimp The nose has a crimp. The nose is limp the blimp It blows the air, the snoot isn't fair Look up in the sky - there's a dirigible there!" __________________ "Am I enjoying this moment? I know of it and perhaps that is enough." - Sybille Bedford, 1953

08-14-2013, 04:36 PM	#86 (permalink)
TLP Groupie Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 16	I love Trout Mask Replica, but TVU&N is one of my favourite albums ever made, so it gets my vote.

08-20-2013, 01:40 AM	#87 (permalink)
GravitySlips Music Addict Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,578	Apparently I voted on this before, but who knows. I hope it was for Beefheart! Trout Mask has aged considerably better for me than this Velvet Underground record.

08-24-2013, 07:37 AM	#88 (permalink)
joeybarten Groupie Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 17	Velvet Underground no contest for me. I like Beefheart but struggle with that record.

03-28-2017, 08:01 AM	#89 (permalink)
Akai Godless Ape Join Date: Mar 2017 Location: Britannia Posts: 1,255	Trout mask for me every time; Cant say no to a record recorded in one take with cardboard on the crash symbols in one house being religiously rehearsed for 8 months straight ''Speckled speculation Fedlocks waddlin’ feast Archaic faces frenzy Ceramic fists artificial deceased ‘n cists rancid buds burst”