Trout Mask Replica vs. The Velvet Underground & Nico

Howard the Duck · 07-21-2012, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apostle

It also lacks any essence of humour. If you take FZ's other projects at this time the one thing that links them is the 'joy' of the music. GTOs, Alice Cooper, and Wild Man make me smile. Normally, CB can have that effect, but not in this case. Interesting that it bombed in the US on release, but scored minor success in the UK - mainly on the back of John Peel's enthusiastic support. I often wondered how much JP was taking the piss with the records he supported. I mean, Tyrannosaurus Rex? I ask you.

i think he was genuine

Tyrannosaurus Rex were oft-times brilliant

Apostle · 07-21-2012, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cenotaph

I feel his weird, clever wordplay and the overall aesthetic of the music contradicts your comment about TMR's lack of humor. I mean... did you actually listen to the album?

Of course I've never listened to the album, I just thought I would make up a point of view to annoy people.

Apostle · 07-21-2012, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howard the Duck

i think he was genuine

Tyrannosaurus Rex were oft-times brilliant

I'm convinced that CB was genuine in the main, but at that time there was a tendency to go for 'shock' value above musical realism (for want of a better word).

As for TR (first incarnation), OK they did some passable stuff, and my comment was aimed more at the John Peel element, who I am convinced took the piss sometimes to see how far his influence spread (Stackwaddy anybody).

I also need to rant sometimes about the way certain albums are deified far beyond their actual influence. Did TMR really change rock music the way Rolling Stone predicted it would. Well, it didn't change CB's music, because he never revisited it to that level again. Some elements of Mirror Man Sessions came close, and I think the extended form he allowed the songs on that album make it far more important in the whole oeuvre, yet it is almost completely ignored.

Howard the Duck · 07-22-2012, 02:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apostle

I'm convinced that CB was genuine in the main, but at that time there was a tendency to go for 'shock' value above musical realism (for want of a better word).

As for TR (first incarnation), OK they did some passable stuff, and my comment was aimed more at the John Peel element, who I am convinced took the piss sometimes to see how far his influence spread (Stackwaddy anybody).

I also need to rant sometimes about the way certain albums are deified far beyond their actual influence. Did TMR really change rock music the way Rolling Stone predicted it would. Well, it didn't change CB's music, because he never revisited it to that level again. Some elements of Mirror Man Sessions came close, and I think the extended form he allowed the songs on that album make it far more important in the whole oeuvre, yet it is almost completely ignored.

i was talking about Peel himself but wateva....

Holerbot6000 · 07-22-2012, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apostle

Did TMR really change rock music the way Rolling Stone predicted it would. Well, it didn't change CB's music, because he never revisited it to that level again. Some elements of Mirror Man Sessions came close, and I think the extended form he allowed the songs on that album make it far more important in the whole oeuvre, yet it is almost completely ignored.

I may be misunderstanding you here but when you say that Trout Mask is unique in the Captain's oeuvre, that just isn't the case. The Decals album was a direct extension of Trout Mask, and though he did divert for awhile into a more commercial sound, his last 3 records took many of the ideas on Trout Mask and extended them even further.

You can't underestimate the influence of Trout Mask either. There was an explosion of really idiosyncratic rock bands, from No Wave to New Wave, that occurred in the mid to late 70's and a lot of them cited Beefheart and Trout Mask as a direct influence.

There's no shame in not liking or 'getting' Trout Mask - it's clearly not for everybody. When you try to diminish it's importance though, I think that's a tougher road to go down. There's too much evidence to the contrary.

The Shadow · 07-22-2012, 12:57 PM

I like both albums, but had to go with TMR.

I'm new to the forum. Hello, all.

joy_circumcision · 07-28-2012, 02:31 AM

I have to hand the title to Trout Mask Replica based on a few factors:

laid the groundwork for wider explorations in rock music into taking nods from traditional musics that were up to that point mainly influencing the guitar players in fellating themselves as well as jazz music
infinitely more interesting listen - 15 listens later to each album, and I still find TMR fresh and exciting, where TVU&N doesn't grab me and shake me around the same way anymore
the Cap'n was guileless in the creation of TMR - it is a fun, exciting sound collage that is clearly a labor of love and dedication. TVU&N is far from academic, but a certain hubris can be felt, a certain "vibe" of self-aware artiness from John Cale, who was classically trained, and Lou Reed, who always comes off as a practiced apathetic

Stephen · 08-09-2012, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joy_circumcision

the Cap'n was guileless in the creation of TMR - it is a fun, exciting sound collage that is clearly a labor of love and dedication.

Guileless is probably pretty accurate. I saw one interview that basically said he wasn't really a musician. He would come in and throw an idea out there, then go to bed while the musicians figured out how it could possibly be done.

Edit: Just remembered where I saw it. Interview with Zoot Horn Rollo.

Our Day With Zoot Horn Rollo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zoot Horn Rollo

Q: I guess we should explain the topic, which is improvisation – regarding groups versus individuals…
ZHR: You mean as a solo player?

Q: Yeah, versus working within a group.
ZHR: Interesting that you’re choosing me.

Q: Is that not a good category?
ZHR: The reason I’m asking is because all the Captain Beefheart stuff was not improvised, none of it was.

Q: So how did that work, starting with ‘trout mask replica’.
ZHR: 80% of it was done by him kind of beating the **** out of a piano, in a rhythmic sense, and having no idea what any of those black and white things were on the piano. And John French, the drummer, transcribed it, notated it all, and would dole out the parts to the players. So he had a concept of being away from tonality, but using rhythm as the main input, because that’s what he had to offer, right, being a non-musician. So John would transcribe it, and then in the process of us working with John to get the parts – you know, when there were seven notes, you’d scratch your head and say, ‘Well, how do I do seven notes with six strings?’ – so then we would invert things and mess around, and try to keep it as close to what he played. For what reason, to tell you the truth, I’m not sure, because he didn’t know what he played after he played it.

Q: So when you were working on the parts, was he there, or did he just sort of…
ZHR: No, he would bang the parts out and go to bed and sleep.

Q: So you would figure out how to do it, and then he would come back, and then you would all record it?
ZHR: No, then we would practice it for nine months.

Q: So would he come around and tell you if you were on the right track?
ZHR: Not as clean as that. Again, we’re dealing with a strange person, coming from a place of being a sculptor/painter, using music as this idiom.

Forward To Death · 08-11-2012, 08:15 AM

Abstract lyricism was a huge influence on later artists. Beck and Ween are two examples of this among many others, obviously.

TMR is absolutely one of the most influential albums of all time.

Urban Hat€monger ? · 08-11-2012, 08:34 AM

I think both albums are tied when it comes to albums that are more talked about than they're listened to.

I feel a thread idea coming on

View Poll Results: Choose.
Trout Mask Replica (1969)	29	44.62%
The Velvet Underground & Nico (1967)	36	55.38%
Voters: 65. You may not vote on this poll

07-28-2012, 02:31 AM	#67 (permalink)
joy_circumcision Music Addict Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: New Orleans, LA Posts: 126	I have to hand the title to Trout Mask Replica based on a few factors: laid the groundwork for wider explorations in rock music into taking nods from traditional musics that were up to that point mainly influencing the guitar players in fellating themselves as well as jazz music infinitely more interesting listen - 15 listens later to each album, and I still find TMR fresh and exciting, where TVU&N doesn't grab me and shake me around the same way anymore the Cap'n was guileless in the creation of TMR - it is a fun, exciting sound collage that is clearly a labor of love and dedication. TVU&N is far from academic, but a certain hubris can be felt, a certain "vibe" of self-aware artiness from John Cale, who was classically trained, and Lou Reed, who always comes off as a practiced apathetic __________________ My Music Journal My RYM (My Pride and Joy)

08-11-2012, 08:34 AM	#70 (permalink)
Urban Hat€monger ? The Sexual Intellectual Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Somewhere cooler than you Posts: 18,605	I think both albums are tied when it comes to albums that are more talked about than they're listened to. I feel a thread idea coming on __________________ Urb's RYM Stuff Most people sell their soul to the devil, but the devil sells his soul to Nick Cave.

07-22-2012, 12:57 PM	#66 (permalink)
The Shadow Groupie Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Somewhere outside Detroit Posts: 1	I like both albums, but had to go with TMR. I'm new to the forum. Hello, all.

08-11-2012, 08:15 AM	#69 (permalink)
Forward To Death Trolier Than Thou Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Minnesota Posts: 1,336	Abstract lyricism was a huge influence on later artists. Beck and Ween are two examples of this among many others, obviously. TMR is absolutely one of the most influential albums of all time.