I really think it's entirely unjustified to assert that in 1967, when VU&Nico was released, that every songwriting element present on the album had been done before without backing up that statement with some examples of songs, artists, or genres which VU borrowed from. Extraordinary claims deserve extraordinary evidence.

Conversely, what is so groundbreaking about Trout Mask Replica? What makes it a much more innovative album than Velvet Underground & Nico?

Firstly, the song structures. Pop music at its core. Then with the sound, Bob Dylan, psychedelia, garage, and of ofcourse traiditonal rock n roll, it had all been done before. VU&Nico was nothing new in 1967. I mean really only one track I feel can only be compared to the avant gardeness of an an actual avant garde record, e.g. TMR, is the song Black Angels Death song and also I guess the subject matters. The beauty of VU&Nico is it perfected songwriting, or atleast conventional songwriting. It has an 'x-factor' if you will, which is unexplainable, which is why it seen as groundbreaking.

Describing TMR, its cold, its analytical, because you can easily dissect why it is avant garde or groundbreaking. You cannot with VU&Nico. And I'd rather opt for the album with genuine emotion rather the indifference that a TMR causes with me, and probably everyone else.

This is the same with Psychocandy by Jesus and Mary Chain but not VU&nico's extent.

I think the problem is that I entirely misread your original post. I actually agree with 90% of what you're saying, but I do think that VU can be credited for some innovation. Everyone draws from a pool of influences; It's just an inescapable fact, especially today, but what they did remarkably well was to take a lot of disparate resources and combine the best elements of each into a style that was uniquely their own. To me, what they produced was more like a repurposing than a rehashing, like 'found' music, the musical embodiment of Warhole's stolen art with an image that screamed rock & roll. In this case imitation is innovation and not just flattery.

...but I still can't handle Nico's voice.

I agree with all of this.

Also, I'll give TMR its dues. Theres definitely some amazing tracks on that album, Ella Guru, Hair Pie Bake etc, but look, there is not one song on TMR that is better than Sunday Morning, Heroin, Venus in Furs, All Tomorrow's parties, I'll be your mirror, Black Angels death song. But I guess TMR is about the album as a 'collective' and sure that argument is valid, but as a collective VU&Nico is a GAGGILION times better anyway. It goes through every single emotion on an emotional spectrum, because it crosses so many genres. Every song on TMR pretty much makes me feel the same, no emotional diversity because all I got through my head is "this is cool because its different".

Yeah, and There;s really nothing to connect with. Well, maybe Frownland, but that's about it.

I love Trout Mask Replica, but TVU&N is one of my favourite albums ever made, so it gets my vote.

Apparently I voted on this before, but who knows.

I hope it was for Beefheart! Trout Mask has aged considerably better for me than this Velvet Underground record.

Velvet Underground no contest for me. I like Beefheart but struggle with that record.

Trout mask for me every time;

Cant say no to a record recorded in one take with cardboard on the crash symbols in one house being religiously rehearsed for 8 months straight

''Speckled speculation Fedlocks waddlin’ feast Archaic faces frenzy Ceramic fists artificial deceased ‘n cists rancid buds burst”

^ HaHa! Welcome to MB, Ziggy. :wave:
Did you vote? because at the moment TMR is trailing in the poll:

"...it's a trailing tail. It's traipsin' along behind the blimp the blimp
The nose has a crimp. The nose is limp the blimp
It blows the air, the snoot isn't fair
Look up in the sky - there's a dirigible there!"

Cheers and yes I did indeed;)

I'm definitively a Trout Mask kind of guy but I still love Velvet's debut very much too. :beer:

Well, don't keep us in suspense, Spectralmusic! Did you vote, and if so, who for ?

If you voted for Trout Mask Replica, then welcome to MB! :wave:

That's what I said "I'm a Trout Mask kind of guy"? :beer:

Beefheart was a staple of my listening at one point in my teens, I adore everything Don did :bowdown::bowdown:

OK then, you've passed the test, Spectralmusic. :thumb:

I also was something of a Beefheart fanatic in my teens, and if you are interested, here's some reading for you:-

http://www.musicbanter.com/general-m...rt-thread.html
http://www.musicbanter.com/general-m...eart-week.html

Do I need to leave MB for feeling indifferent about Trout Mask then?

Depends, how do you feel about Doc at the Radar Station or Safe As Milk?

I need to listen to it but I'll get back to you

^ :laughing: Trout Mask is usually described as an album you either love or hate, so indifference is not a very common response, Tristan.

To answer your question; I'm sorry but I had to report you to the mods, so it's now out of our hands. They might go easy on you, especially if you show some remorse.... indifference isn't hate.... you came forward and confessed of your own free will.... upstanding member of MB community....of good character....first-time offender....

Pls hammer don't hurt me

If you try Frownland's suggestion, you'll discover that Safe As Milk is a really easy listen, compared to Trout Mask. A couple of tracks are a little weak and dated, but there are plenty of good ones, so keep going until the fabulous closer, Electricity.

I think you mean Autumn'a Child, but Electricity is the best song on the album after Abba a Zabba. I recommend listening to the reissue though, Tristan. It has a lot of cool bonus tracks from Mirror Man and Strictly Personal that are all great.

Oops! Didn't realize how many years it's been since I played Safe As Milk - I've completely forgotten the running order of the tracks, but yes, Abba Zabba is another stand-out track for sure. I haven't heard those cd bonus tracks, so I might see if they're on YouTube.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____

Dali's Car was the first TMR track that Beefheart composed - at the piano, with John French as the long-suffering assistant trying to annotate and transcribe for the band what Beefheart was playing. The track was supposedly inspired by Stravinsky, so here's a Stravinsky piece, transcribed for piano.
We can compare: Dali's Car (which went from piano to guitar) and Symphonies of Wind Instruments (which has gone from woodwind to piano).

......

im kinda with you. i mean, i like TMR, but i could definitely live without. it was cool the first few times, but since then i've rarely came back to it.

safe as milk is the **** tho

Try coming to it a few more times, junior.

meh. if it doesn't stick after like, a good 7 or 8 listens, i don't expect it to ever stick.

You heard what I said.

Maybe preface it with some general Delta blues obsession/education.

still playin this on a semi regular basis

That's a goodie.

Not counting his notation of the madness, I think that Suger 'n' Spikes has Drumbo's greatest moment at 1:54 (it's also one of the things that made me return to the record when I first heard it).

That's a complicated bit of drumming, but it didn't strike me especially when I first started listening to TMR. First drumming that I particularly noticed was on the end section of Pachuco Cadaver.(That's the part that uses the irresistable riff from "Shortnin' Bread.") Drumbo is doing a great job on the cymbals from about 2:30 onwards.

.....

Some amazing lyrics on this track too:-

Unless I'm mistaken, Pachucos were the hip young Mexican immigrants hanging around in the US in the fifties. FZ used to go to their dances and copy their music I think.

I have been listening to TVU&N for a few years longer than Trout Mask Reptar, but already I can tell I'm going to get as much enjoyment out of Trout Mask as VU&N. They are both legends in my eyes but I suppose the velvets have been a greater inspiration to me overall, so I give it to them but only by a hair.

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lemme redirect you ;);

http://www.musicbanter.com/lounge/90...-opinions.html

Thanks for your in depth musical analysis. The site is better for it.

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Nah TMR is for music fans you wouldn't be into it.

I will wait for you :jailed:

.

I think I'll manage.

Little lion man dances with the daisies and masies but he always fell down cause his hands where too small