Burning Down

Hey, I never moved the thread. Plus you are right in saying that John Cage and his predecessors like Schoenberg were avant-garde in the classical tradition.

Gregor XIII

Never said you did. And it's really no big deal, I just find it silly. I mean, you can make a discussion of Albert Ayler in an avantgarde context, but removing a thread on him from the jazz-forum would be silly as well.

But hey, who cares. Let's discusss the actual music instead, that is what is important. What are the best recordings?

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Agnes Varda's Le Bonheur + thoughts on women in Akhmatova and Mizuguchi: The Centrifugue

NGPercussion

I quite liked the recording of 4:32 that I posted a few posts ago. The pianist was great.

Burning Down

*4'33"

NGPercussion

Oh, come on! Haha, you got me.

Farfisa

I mentioned John Cage in my music appreciation class. My instructor called him an idiot who decided to sit at a piano for 5 minutes (Haha, nope) and call it a composition. I do think that Cage is sort of the Andy Warhol of the music world, but not as nearly pretentious. Warhol was a dick, Cage was a kind soul who took interest in any sound. He had a beautiful relationship with music and sounds, it really does put a tear in my eye.

dankrsta

What's ridiculous is that there has been more pages of whether John Cage is classical or avant-garde than it has been about his actual work. But, I guess it's good that we're at least talking about him, even though indirectly. I'll play along, since I moved this thread. Moving him to avant-garde forum doesn't move him away from classical realm. The name of this subforum is Avant-Garde/Experimental and not avant-garde/experimental rock, electro or whatever. It is not exclusive to experimental tendencies in popular music only.

It seems that you and starrynight are actually thinking of the so called art music, or "serious" music, high art etc. and calling all of it classical. I understand that, many people do that, but then it begs the question: What is Avant-Garde and experimental music? What kind of music belongs in this forum? Yes there were "avant-gardes" in the modernist music before Cage, as there are in the post-modern age. But these "avant-gardes" are relative, and our perspective on them changes as the time goes by. What Cage was doing will always be avant-garde whether you compare it to what was happening before him or after him. The philosophy, concepts and radical approach to music, by his own words: "an experimental action is one the outcome of which is not foreseen"...after the World War II, that's what is thought of when faced with the term avant-garde and experimental music. That's when Cage did his most important work.

Are you saying blues-based music broke away from classical tradition? What classical tradition? Classical tradition of blues (folk) or classical tradition of high art music? See how this term "classical" can change meaning depending on in which context you use it. If you're thinking of the latter, well, that's completely ridiculous. How can some music break away from a tradition it doesn't belong in? And to that, Cage coming from classical tradition and searching for ways to break away, deconstruct it and even "destroy" it, is exactly what makes him avant-garde. In doing so he challenges and transforms the way all music can be seen, not just classical tradition. When any art becomes as abstract as his 4'33" it pretty much becomes outside of all traditions. For example, critics are arguing whether to view Cage as a modernist or post-modernist. To me, it says a lot about his belonging to traditions. What is certain is that he has enormous influence on post-modern music, be it 'art' or 'popular' music, and especially on the blurring line between these two. His music will always be avantgarde to it.

Sorry, we cannot put Cage in between classical and avant-garde forum. It has to be one or the other. But, what forum he's in doesn't define his work completely. These subforums are more like broad frames. It really is not a big deal where this thread is, but since it was brought up, I thought it makes more sense to be here.

One more thing, I never thought I had to explain this much why John Cage's music is avant-garde.

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MoonlitSunshine

I remember hearing a wonderful piece of his for Marimba in a chamber music festival here. It was part of a concert by this fantastc percussionist called Hans Kristian Sorenson, who is coincidentally the performer of the loudest "pop" noise that you make with your mouth that I have ever heard... But yeah, the Cage piece.

I found it interesting as it seemed to be another experiment into silence, and what people think they hear. The piece had quite long repeated passages in it, and the end involved the same series of notes being played quieter and quieter, until the player wasn't actually hitting the notes anymore, but because the sticks were still moving, you still thought that you could hear the notes. I like Cage's music as he always seems to be pushing those boundaries: there are lots of composers who experiment with the way we perceive melodies and tonal relationships, but in my experience, comparatively few who experiment with how we hear.

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starrynight

I never put it like that. I've said experimental can embrace all kinds of styles. Cage did come from classical music beginnings.

Classical music of course has a long tradition but it is always changing as well.

'Destroys' is putting it a bit strongly. He was writing music for string quartet as late as 1983 and for orchestra in 1986.

Yes perhaps, although he is about more than just 4'33''. Many pieces he did do use classical instruments and even have a dialogue with the classical tradition.

I think he can be looked at sometimes as classical and sometimes as avant-garde depending on the piece.

Ska Lagos Jew Sun Ra

The mention of things like Battles as being more avant-garde than John Cage? I would argue that Battles is straight noise-rock, and to my estimation sound a ****load like say, Lightning Bolt, at times.

They use traditional instrumentation, traditional compositional method, and traditional release format. In fact, hearing they use prerecorded vocals in their live shows in another thread brings me to believe that with their obsession to duplicate performances as they are written, they are closer to Classical than John Cage. Focusing on studio release of music which is constructed entirely of rock formula, just abstracted a little. I mean, honestly, if it weren't for the need to organise, they're just prog rock than anything.

Yet, if we were that picky, we wouldn't even have an avant-garde forum. So, we just take the label as is, as Dankstra eluded to.

John Cage, however, explored what Avant-Garde is. That is, music that follows a fresh form of rules, and defies/expands/changes the rules before it. He's the epitome of the genre, and if he isn't Avant-garde, then you might as well stop believing in the concept of Avant-garde, and it's existence entirely.

now, onto actual Cage discussion:

Warhol was a complete con-artist, from my findings. Cage did not profit like Andy Warhol chose to do, and violently defended(He would just throw **** together, and slap his name on it to profit after awhile, not having an iota of heart for it, and using 'that' as his message). Cage was simply a philosopher that used his exhibitions, and displays as examples for the betterment of music from a communal point of view.

I've seen interviews with cage in his late 50s in his apartment. It's a cramped, crowded place. Not saying he wasn't rich, I wouldn't know either way, but he obviously wasn't one for flamboyance. Just a deep, honest, loving man, really. He may be an extremely well known accomplished figure, but didn't live like it.

Furthermore, he inspired the creation of Krautrock. A genre which is indispensable, and pretty much the sole spawn of all electronic music whether it be dance music, new wave, ambient electronic, industrial, etc. Bowie, and Eno were also massively influenced by Kraut, which means that even the world of Art Rock would take a hit. AMM was largely influenced by Cage, so free inspiration might just be out the door. Cage invented the concept of improv games which John Zorn launched his career off of. Zorn being probably the most important figure in the 90s in avant-jazz, and avant-rock. Creating a massive network that wouldn't be possible without Cage's influence. Both Frank Zappa, and Ruins released their best works, imo(Absolutely Free, and Hydrogroingem collectively) as tributes to the man. There's not a single layer of stream, main or no, in experimental work that wasn't somehow directly, or indirectly influenced by the man.

Cage's unrepenting philosophy basically brought composition into a new era. There is no mistaking that he is crucial to modern music. I'd say even more so than Beethoven, or Bach, and I do mean that seriously. We live in the age of amplification, and the age of technology. Cage gave all musicians a guiderail to explore new ideas. He created liberalism in music, in my eyes. A guide to TRULY combat the preachy, overknowing, aging conservative in music.

Was he that great of a composer? Personally, I'd say no. He wasn't a great composer at all. When it came to producing music, he's decidedly average. But, that's not his calling, it wasn't to seek the personal glory of being the next Franz Liszt, or Elvis Presley for that matter. It was simply to explore the relationship between humans, and sound, so we can explore it on a more spiritual level.

If you ask me, he's a philosophical genius, extraordinary educator, and a visionary who modern music would just not be possible without.

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