Changes to Rule Enforcement

Guybrush · 05-28-2015, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oriphiel

I guess i'm not done here quite yet, though I'll try to stay out of the main debate to keep it from going in circles...

Tore, I have a request for you: Please send me a PM, listing these supposed trolls that natural selection has caused to overrun Music Banter. If you can name more than three blatant flamers that have yet to be banned or driven away, I will rethink this whole matter. Because from what I've seen, the most popular and noticed people on Music Banter are the supportive ones. They're the ones that everyone pays attention to and loves, and there are as many of them as there have ever been.

I probably won't because it's beside the point which is that in a different environment, we'd all behave better towards eachother. It's not really about any one or three members.

As I mentioned earlier, my suggestion should be relatively troll-robust. If it was up and running okay, I'd say unban some of the old trolls and give them a try. Perhaps the environment being a little more predictable (and perhaps friendlier) would make it easier for them to adapt.

~~Soulflower~~ · 05-28-2015, 09:32 AM

I agree with everything tore has said in this thread and agree with the suggestion.

I am not sure if we are casting a vote but please count my vote as a consideration for the decision.

In addition, I think there should be all new moderators and I also think the way moderators are appointed should be changed.

This board is small because of all the reasons tore stated in this thread but I have said this many times here. It appears most of the members here don't want the board to be bigger, are not open to new ideas and enjoy the clique mentality of the board.

This board will remain small if no changes are made not that any of the members here care but just saying.

YorkeDaddy · 05-28-2015, 09:34 AM

My experience with point infraction systems is that they are just as inconsistent and subjective as what we have here. Some mods see something as infraction-worthy while others don't which just leads to confusion and finger-pointing. The current system basically boils down to "should this person be temp banned?" If the answer feels like an obvious yes then the person gets the temp ban, otherwise they're free to keep going until they DO cross that line. This system encourages people being themselves but on the occasion someone goes too far they WILL be punished. Myself, GWG, Sansa, Dirty are all examples of that. I just don't think the punishment system is broken

The Batlord · 05-28-2015, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soulflower

It appears most of the members here don't want the board to be bigger

Correct. Large forums are impersonal and boring. I generally go to one for a month or two to talk about some subject that's currently interesting me, and after I've got it out of my system I leave, never to return, cause I didn't really build any connections to people that made me want to stay. There's a reason I've been hear for four years.

To mock Trollheart.

DwnWthVwls · 05-28-2015, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soulflower

In addition, I think there should be all new moderators and I also think the way moderators are appointed should be changed.

Seriously? Yac, Pete, Jans, Goofle, Duga? Vanilla/Freebase have acted out a couple times but nothing worth stripping them of modship.

Our mods are dramafree, and fair.

Oriphiel · 05-28-2015, 09:45 AM

What's wrong with a small forum? My couch is smaller than my neighbor's, and it has a few nasty springs jutting out of it, but it's comfy and I wouldn't trade it for a fancy and massive leather gargantuan.

Also, this whole argument is the same debate that happens when people try to enact morality laws. For example, "Cursing in public should be illegal." People claim that curse words exist purely to hurt people, and they do nothing to benefit discussions. In a way, they're right. It's a matter of opinion whether someone believes that people should have the right to say what they want (except for slander/libel, which is comparable to when people get too personal and the mods step in), or to give up some freedoms because it may associate them with "bad" people and behavior. You know where I stand on that issue, and this one, and I respectfully disagree with your stance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

I'll be honest and admit that Urban's leaving is one of the reasons why I've brought this up - again. I think it's always relevant, but it was yet another reminder as to why. Those who have been here a while have seen many great members disappear. It is my belief that many of those great members probably left because they didn't like the environment here, the late Urban included.

Sooner or later, people get fed up with it. Those who don't are the ones who thrive on it.

By your logic, since this has been going on for awhile and the "great members" have apparently been leaving, then shouldn't the forum be more volatile than ever? If that's true, then why didn't the forum explode after Urban left? There was ammunition and a target, yet almost nobody even thought about taking aim. We reward altruism; just look at how many views Trollheart's massive array of threads get (I mean, his journal is one of the most viewed threads to ever be on Music Banter. There are only two threads in the Lounge, which you claim overshadows the other forums, that dwarf it in views, and both of them are much older). We reward talent; every time an established member writes a great song, everyone praises them and publicly reviews them to give them exposure.

The only reward a troublemaker gets is attention, but guess what? They'd get it even if your proposal went through. People would still act out; it's human nature. And if you really think that putting a filter down and expecting them to be stupid enough to just yell "**** everyone! Ban me!" then you're being idealistic. This is human nature, and it'll continue no matter what. At least with the current system, we have the benefit of the doubt, which we have shown time and again that we deserve.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

No it's not. Rule enforcement happens in a non-disruptive manner - in infractions and PMs stating why. If someone is punished for something they did in a discussion you're in, it's not a given you'd ever notice.

The mods and users have already proven that they can keep the majority of the forum under control. We don't need a robocop. I might be willing to support your proposal if it only affects the Lounge (the one place that needs it), and I think that would be a good compromise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

So nice that Urban not being here is something you consider "normal". Sorry for the cheap shot, but Musicbanter is like a tower of bricks and every time someone like Urban leaves, that's like removing a big one from the foundations. If something erodes piece by piece, it might not look different. But if you go away for a year or two and come back, the difference may be apparent.

That's exactly my point. The tower of MB basically lost it's very foundation, yet we didn't let the tower tumble down. When a piece breaks off, we fix it. When cracks appear, we keep them from spreading out, and we seal them. MB is a big, old, mossy tower that looks weird, but eventually you come to love it. Even if you think a big boring obelisk is more ordered and admirable, you shouldn't try to smooth away the very things that make MB such an interesting place. If you want more moderation, the answer is simple; stop punishing yourself by trying to make this place into something it isn't, and go to one of the many more moderated forums around the internet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

In my opinion, if a fight between two members has broken out on the boards and they're breaking rules, things have already gone too far. The rules are supposed to prevent this and what use are they if they can't?

I actually think that The Lounge is healthy. People say what is on their minds, and express perfectly natural feelings (which includes anger). It doesn't affect the music forums, and the mods step in when asked to. It's a privilege to have a place where we can moderate ourselves, and it's one that we don't often abuse, and still deserve to have. Yet still, as I said before, I would agree to the new enforcement rules if they were put solely on The Lounge. I think that would be a reasonable solution, if people are dead set on changing things. And if things don't get better in a month, then start restricting every other forum. After that, if they still don't make things better, at that point we should think about removing the restrictions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

What is too far in your opinion? I guess Urban leaving is not too far?

If you want to blame someone for Urban leaving, blame me. Don't pretend that he left as some grand statement about the way MB has been going; if that were the case, he would have said as much in his goodbye post. Not giving a motive would only cause people to search for someone to blame, which is exactly what happened, and it's the only possible reason he wouldn't give a reason (since him taking the time to critique MB would have helped people to understand and support his cause immensely). He wanted me to pay for making him angry, and he did, in a way. But he didn't get the uproar that he wanted, and expected.

DwnWthVwls · 05-28-2015, 09:52 AM

If you think you're the reason Urban left you have a gigantic ego. No one knows what happened with him, and if they do, they haven't confirmed it one way or another. You might have been the straw which really doesn't say much.

RoxyRollah · 05-28-2015, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oriphiel

What's wrong with a small forum? My couch is smaller than my neighbor's, and it has a few nasty springs jutting out of it, but it's comfy and I wouldn't trade it for a fancy and massive leather gargantuan.

Also, this whole argument is the same debate that happens when people try to enact morality laws. For example, "Cursing in public should be illegal." People claim that curse words exist purely to hurt people, and they do nothing to benefit discussions. In a way, they're right. It's a matter of opinion whether someone believes that people should have the right to say what they want (except for slander/libel, which is comparable to when people get too personal and the mods step in), or to give up some freedoms because it may associate them with "bad" people and behavior. You know where I stand on that issue, and this one, and I respectfully disagree with your stance.

By your logic, since this has been going on for awhile and the "great members" have apparently been leaving, then shouldn't the forum be more volatile than ever? If that's true, then why didn't the forum explode after Urban left? There was ammunition and a target, yet almost nobody even thought about taking aim. We reward altruism; just look at how many views Trollheart's massive array of threads get (I mean, his journal is one of the most viewed threads to ever be on Music Banter. There are only two threads in the Lounge, which you claim overshadows the other forums, that dwarf it in views, and both of them are much older). We reward talent; every time an established member writes a great song, everyone praises them and publicly reviews them to give them exposure.

The only reward a troublemaker gets is attention, but guess what? They'd get it even if your proposal went through. People would still act out; it's human nature. And if you really think that putting a filter down and expecting them to be stupid enough to just yell "**** everyone! Ban me!" then you're being idealistic. This is human nature, and it'll continue no matter what. At least with the current system, we have the benefit of the doubt, which we have shown time and again that we deserve.

The mods and users have already proven that they can keep the majority of the forum under control. We don't need a robocop. I might be willing to support your proposal if it only affects the Lounge (the one place that needs it), and I think that would be a good compromise.

That's exactly my point. The tower of MB basically lost it's very foundation, yet we didn't let the tower tumble down. When a piece breaks off, we fix it. When cracks appear, we keep them from spreading out, and we seal them. MB is a big, old, mossy tower that looks weird, but eventually you come to love it. Even if you think a big boring obelisk is more ordered and admirable, you shouldn't try to smooth away the very things that make MB such an interesting place. If you want more moderation, the answer is simple; stop punishing yourself by trying to make this place into something it isn't, and go to one of the many more moderated forums around the internet.

I actually think that The Lounge is healthy. People say what is on their minds, and express perfectly natural feelings (which includes anger). It doesn't affect the music forums, and the mods step in when asked to. It's a privilege to have a place where we can moderate ourselves, and it's one that we don't often abuse, and still deserve to have. Yet still, as I said before, I would agree to the new enforcement rules if they were put solely on The Lounge. I think that would be a reasonable solution, if people are dead set on changing things. And if things don't get better in a month, then start restricting every other forum. After that, if they still don't make things better, at that point we should think about removing the restrictions.

If you want to blame someone for Urban leaving, blame me. Don't pretend that he left as some grand statement about the way MB has been going; if that were the case, he would have said as much in his goodbye post. Not giving a motive would only cause people to search for someone to blame, which is exactly what happened, and it's the only possible reason he wouldn't give a reason (since him taking the time to critique MB would have helped people to understand and support his cause immensely). He wanted me to pay for making him angry, and he did, in a way. But he didn't get the uproar that he wanted, and expected.

You do not know this man at all. Like at all. I'd appreciate it if you refrain from judging him.

Oriphiel · 05-28-2015, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

If you think your the reason Urban left you have a gigantic ego. No one knows what happened with him, and if they do they haven't confirmed it one way or another. You might have been the straw which really doesn't say much.

How do you know, if he never gave a reason? If he wanted to say that MB was going to hell, he'd have just said it. He wasn't a shy guy. You can't blame any of us for trying to understand it, and coming to conclusions.

Anyway, I told everyone to decide for themselves, and that's exactly what they did. The fact that everyone blamed me for it says as much about them as it does about me. The reason why I keep saying "I'm probably the reason why Urban left" is because that is the consensus, and because our issues and contact when he left involved more than just the Confessional Thread. I have a good reason to believe it, and everyone else does. It's not like I want everyone to think i'm Oriphiel: Slayer of Urbans. I stayed out of his goodbye thread specifically to keep that kind of thing from happening.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoxyRollah

You do not know this man at all. Like at all. I'd appreciate it if you refrain from judging him.

We were as much friends as we were enemies. It really bothered me when he left. I've tried very hard to keep this from becoming an issue, so please don't judge me without knowing my relationship with him. I'm sorry for putting words into your mouth, for what it's worth.

The Batlord · 05-28-2015, 10:03 AM

Urban's been complaining about how the site sucks as long as I've been here. He's one of those "In my day, we actually talked about music" kind of guys.

05-28-2015, 09:32 AM	#52 (permalink)
~~Soulflower~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 2,304	I agree with everything tore has said in this thread and agree with the suggestion. I am not sure if we are casting a vote but please count my vote as a consideration for the decision. In addition, I think there should be all new moderators and I also think the way moderators are appointed should be changed. This board is small because of all the reasons tore stated in this thread but I have said this many times here. It appears most of the members here don't want the board to be bigger, are not open to new ideas and enjoy the clique mentality of the board. This board will remain small if no changes are made not that any of the members here care but just saying.