Changes to Rule Enforcement

RoxyRollah · 06-04-2015, 08:07 AM

Tore: Since the no vote outweighs the yes is it safe to admit that people are just not that into your idea.
No disrespect but poll hasnt changed. Id say scrap your idea and try a new one.

Guybrush · 06-04-2015, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoxyRollah

Tore: Since the no vote outweighs the yes is it safe to admit that people are just not that into your idea.
No disrespect but poll hasnt changed. Id say scrap your idea and try a new one.

I don't think it's time yet. I'm not sure if you know what the common development of a discussion is like, but getting to the point where it's actually fruitful and constructive can take a while. I have the patience and determination to get to this point and I basically think we're getting there. This could be the best part.

In my last post, I pointed out to Janszoon that our goals may not be so different. It seems to me we pretty much want the same thing regarding nonsense posts and a misapprehension that this was something we disagreed on may now clear up.

Similarly, Ki and Trollheart have treated this discussion as if the suggestion includes punishing all friendly banter through the no nonsense posts rule, but that is not necessarily so. I've now pointed out that if there was no rule against nonsense posts, there would be little reason to punish nonsense. Perhaps this information will make them change perspective? Also, I believe they've yet to acknowledge or consider that even with that rule in place, getting infractions for breaking it may not be a big deal as it could require repeated rule breakage in a short time span to really get punished. This is another point I made in my last post and also one I am hoping they will pick up on.

So, in other words, I think this discussion is still progressing along nicely if not better than ever.

Edit : I think the overall tone is improving too.

RoxyRollah · 06-04-2015, 08:25 AM

Smh.But honey people still don't like it ,I didn't say quit I said back to the drawing board.

But for the sake of not brow beating folks into submission why not try and change your idea like over haul not tweak it.Thats true compromise, not just tweaking and retweaking the same shot down idea over and over.

Guybrush · 06-04-2015, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoxyRollah

Smh.But honey people still don't like it ,I didn't say quit I said back to the drawing board.

But for the sake of not brow beating folks into submission why not try and change your idea like over haul not tweak it.Thats true compromise, not just tweaking and retweaking the same shot down idea over and over.

You've persistently asked me to quit several times now. I hope it's alright that I ask you to quit asking me to quit. I'm sorry, but I still think we could be headed in a direction that could really benefit this site and that's more important to me than your wish for me to quit.

The infractions system is not something from my drawing board either. It's really something the developers of vbulletin came up with. Even if I went back to the drawing board, I can't feasibly develop new features for this forum and so it's probably better to really utilize the options we got here.

Key · 06-04-2015, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

You've persistently asked me to quit several times now. I hope it's alright that I ask you to quit asking me to quit. I'm sorry, but I still think we could be headed in a direction that could really benefit this site and that's more important to me than your wish for me to quit.

The infractions system is not something from my drawing board either. It's really something the developers of vbulletin came up with. Even if I went back to the drawing board, I can't feasibly develop new features for this forum and so it's probably better to really utilize the options we got here.

So basically, until everybody agrees with you about your proposal, you're not going to drop it and move on. That's pretty much exactly what I expected. It's also evident from your "new poll" in the other thread that you're just going to keep trying to shove your ideals for a "perfect forum" down people's throats until they either agree or leave.

I'm honestly surprised that this has even been allowed to go on for this long. I'd have thought somebody would have pulled the plug on it and discussed things with you via PM, but obviously that hasn't been the case.

I'm also curious as to why a member like you, whom really hasn't been very active in the past year or so, feels the need to suddenly come back to the forum, only to try to push the idea of new rules. If what you want goes through, would you be a more active member? Or would you just leave us all the the dust to fend for ourselves with the new system that you'd get implemented?

The Batlord · 06-04-2015, 09:33 AM

Well, let's get that new poll up with the two week time limit. If it fails, then the discussion will be over. Or we find tore and kick his ass.

Guybrush · 06-04-2015, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ki

So basically, until everybody agrees with you about your proposal, you're not going to drop it and move on.

No, not quite. I want to try and make people understand the proposal and what it could mean for musicbanter. If someone understands it and they're of the opinion that it's a bad idea, then that's fine. I can respect that opinion. However, if am presented with a problem, I might suggest a solution. If I am confronted with fiction, I might point out the facts. Basically, I like discussing things.

As a side note - if you wanna kill this thread, you should just stop contributing to it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ki

It's also evident from your "new poll" in the other thread that you're just going to keep trying to shove your ideals for a "perfect forum" down people's throats until they either agree or leave.

The new poll was actually Freebase Dali's idea (and a good one too). He's been kind enough to offer constructive feedback, some of which I have agreed with and followed up on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ki

I'm also curious as to why a member like you, whom really hasn't been very active in the past year or so, feels the need to suddenly come back to the forum, only to try to push the idea of new rules. If what you want goes through, would you be a more active member? Or would you just leave us all the the dust to fend for ourselves with the new system that you'd get implemented?

I'm just doing Lord Cthu... I mean, I missed some of the discussions on MB, particularly the philosophical, moral, sciency ones, so I came back. Pushing new rules is not the only thing I've done, but I guess it is typical of me. I do have a fair share of threads suggesting new features, policies and so on. People who know me are probably not surprised.

If the proposed system was adopted, or more likely one of the compromise solutions, I assume I would generally become more active. Perhaps I could get the prog & fusion album club or a journal going again.

Trollheart · 06-04-2015, 12:30 PM

Right, tore has accused me --- well, accused is probably too strong a word: he's intimated that I do nothing but complain and find fault with his rules, but come up with none of my own. So I've thought about it and this is what I've come up with. It's based on the infraction system used in football (Disclaimer: when I say football here I'm referring to real football, not the type you Americans wear suits of armour to play! And no, I will not call it soccer!)

and works like this:

During a game there are many things a player can do to find himself in the referee's notebook but, and this is important, this does not always happen. In order for the game to flow and for people to feel comfortable about making tackles, winning the ball etc there is some leeway, so whereas a bad tackle might be frowned upon, it may not necessarily be punished. When it is, a player is handed a Yellow Card. This means he is on licence; do it again and he's off. Two yellow cards equals one Red, after which the player is dismissed from the field and cannot take part in any more games for usually three matches.

In order that nobody goes mad throwing about Yellow Cards and half the teams are off the field, refs use their judgement. They, or the linesmen at the side, will note if something illegal or unwanted is done, and the player may be warned, or jut get the eye from the ref. He knows he has been spotted, and had better watch himself. After usually one warning, maybe two, or if he does something that cannot be excused, he gets a Yellow. If it's really bad he can get a straight Red, which effects his immediate expulsion from the pitch.

My idea reflects that. Say someone starts acting up. A mod can say “stop it, we're watching you” or similar, in the thread, to that member. If he or she does not stop, or does something else, then a Yellow Card is issued. Now, this is issued within the thread, in the open, not by PM, so that all can see it. Everyone now knows that Member A is on probation. If he or she steps out of line again, or fails to heed the warning, he or she gets a Red. This then would probably mean a week's ban.

How does this differ from our current system of infractions? Not that much, but the important part is that it's all done out in the open, where everyone can see, so not only has Member A got the message, and can't say he or she was not warned, but everyone else has seen him or her get it, so any complaining or whining later that it wasn't fair will be greeted with derision. We've all seen him or her ride the limits, be told to stop. We've seen him or her get the Yellow, so there can be no doubt they knew they were on a serious warning. In extreme cases, two Reds could make a Black Card (I think they do this in rugby?) which might then mean a month's ban for really bad or repeated behaviour that flouts the rules.

This may be seen as more work for mods, I don't know, but is it any more work than PMing everyone who needs an infraction? You're in the thread, you see the problem, you can deal with it there and then. It's in the open, there are no closed doors or kangaroo courts, nobody can be accused of having a vendetta against anyone, it's all there to see. In football, Red cards can also be appealed if the person feels they were given it unfairly, and this would be up to the mods to decide (if this system were adopted) but an appeal tribunal could be held, where the mods, in concert maybe with Member A and maybe anyone he or she offended or affected with his or her behaviour, could decide whether it should stand or be rescinded.

Look, I don't know: I'm doing this on the fly. But it seems on its face a fairer and more equitable system. If I go over the top and someone hits me with a Yellow card (even if I think I should not have got that card) and continue in that behaviour and then get a Red, what protest can I raise? And who will support that, seeing what happened? I think it 's better than someone disappearing off the board and everyone wondering where they went, and why they were banned. It also, to return to the football analogy, allows everyone not only to play nice but to play rough if they want, aware they are being watched and not to push it too far. Nobody's afraid to slide in with a tackle, but by the same token everyone knows that an elbow in the face will not be tolerated. This would of course apply to all members, as on the pitch the captain can be as easily carded as a defender, and the player costing seventy million can go just as can the one costing ten. And as in football, if the ref (mod) does not see the infraction then it can be brought to his or her attention by way of reporting. The mod can then investigate and see if the card is merited.

If this were to be implemented, I wonder if a yellow card/red card symbol could be added to the member's panel, like their post count, join date etc, just on a temporary basis, until the card has been worked off? Well anyway...

An embyronic idea, certainly, but on the face of it, what do you guys think? Would it work? Have I forgotten anything? Does anyone have questions, want to challenge it? What does tore think? What about the other mods?

**Janszoon** · 06-04-2015, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

Hehe, I don't think we see things that differently. The boldened part of your quote is sorta what the proposed system does.

It's not dangerous to get infractions as long as you don't get too many. In other words, you could post nonsense posts now and then. But if you have a "pattern of posting nonsense constantly", you'd get tempbanned.

People insist on taking offense to any infractions at all, but as I've mentioned before, one could instead see it as a measure of freedom. If you've got 8 infractions, you don't have as much freedom and should wait a bit before posting more nonsense. If you have 0 infractions, you can post more nonsense. Just play it smart and try to keep up with the score.

If mods wanted to be more lenient than my initial proposition, you could say breaking the short post rule gives you 1 infraction for 1 week. Then you could break the rule 9 times in a week without real repercussions.

All it sound like you're saying here it that you want to institute a much more laborious and intrusive system to do what it already being done. I don't see the point.

Trollheart · 06-04-2015, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

All it sound like you're saying here it that you want to institute a much more laborious and intrusive system to do what it already being done. I don't see the point.

Jansz are you talking to me? If so, then maybe yes, but I think the point of the infractions, if they need to be served as it were, are out in the open where everyone can see is a better idea.

Or just keep the current system. I've already said I'm happy with it. I just wanted to show you all that I'm not just bashing every suggestion without trying to come up with an alternative.

06-04-2015, 12:30 PM	#378 (permalink)
Trollheart Born to be mild Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 404 Not Found Posts: 26,992	Right, tore has accused me --- well, accused is probably too strong a word: he's intimated that I do nothing but complain and find fault with his rules, but come up with none of my own. So I've thought about it and this is what I've come up with. It's based on the infraction system used in football (Disclaimer: when I say football here I'm referring to real football, not the type you Americans wear suits of armour to play! And no, I will not call it soccer!) and works like this: During a game there are many things a player can do to find himself in the referee's notebook but, and this is important, this does not always happen. In order for the game to flow and for people to feel comfortable about making tackles, winning the ball etc there is some leeway, so whereas a bad tackle might be frowned upon, it may not necessarily be punished. When it is, a player is handed a Yellow Card. This means he is on licence; do it again and he's off. Two yellow cards equals one Red, after which the player is dismissed from the field and cannot take part in any more games for usually three matches. In order that nobody goes mad throwing about Yellow Cards and half the teams are off the field, refs use their judgement. They, or the linesmen at the side, will note if something illegal or unwanted is done, and the player may be warned, or jut get the eye from the ref. He knows he has been spotted, and had better watch himself. After usually one warning, maybe two, or if he does something that cannot be excused, he gets a Yellow. If it's really bad he can get a straight Red, which effects his immediate expulsion from the pitch. My idea reflects that. Say someone starts acting up. A mod can say “stop it, we're watching you” or similar, in the thread, to that member. If he or she does not stop, or does something else, then a Yellow Card is issued. Now, this is issued within the thread, in the open, not by PM, so that all can see it. Everyone now knows that Member A is on probation. If he or she steps out of line again, or fails to heed the warning, he or she gets a Red. This then would probably mean a week's ban. How does this differ from our current system of infractions? Not that much, but the important part is that it's all done out in the open, where everyone can see, so not only has Member A got the message, and can't say he or she was not warned, but everyone else has seen him or her get it, so any complaining or whining later that it wasn't fair will be greeted with derision. We've all seen him or her ride the limits, be told to stop. We've seen him or her get the Yellow, so there can be no doubt they knew they were on a serious warning. In extreme cases, two Reds could make a Black Card (I think they do this in rugby?) which might then mean a month's ban for really bad or repeated behaviour that flouts the rules. This may be seen as more work for mods, I don't know, but is it any more work than PMing everyone who needs an infraction? You're in the thread, you see the problem, you can deal with it there and then. It's in the open, there are no closed doors or kangaroo courts, nobody can be accused of having a vendetta against anyone, it's all there to see. In football, Red cards can also be appealed if the person feels they were given it unfairly, and this would be up to the mods to decide (if this system were adopted) but an appeal tribunal could be held, where the mods, in concert maybe with Member A and maybe anyone he or she offended or affected with his or her behaviour, could decide whether it should stand or be rescinded. Look, I don't know: I'm doing this on the fly. But it seems on its face a fairer and more equitable system. If I go over the top and someone hits me with a Yellow card (even if I think I should not have got that card) and continue in that behaviour and then get a Red, what protest can I raise? And who will support that, seeing what happened? I think it 's better than someone disappearing off the board and everyone wondering where they went, and why they were banned. It also, to return to the football analogy, allows everyone not only to play nice but to play rough if they want, aware they are being watched and not to push it too far. Nobody's afraid to slide in with a tackle, but by the same token everyone knows that an elbow in the face will not be tolerated. This would of course apply to all members, as on the pitch the captain can be as easily carded as a defender, and the player costing seventy million can go just as can the one costing ten. And as in football, if the ref (mod) does not see the infraction then it can be brought to his or her attention by way of reporting. The mod can then investigate and see if the card is merited. If this were to be implemented, I wonder if a yellow card/red card symbol could be added to the member's panel, like their post count, join date etc, just on a temporary basis, until the card has been worked off? Well anyway... An embyronic idea, certainly, but on the face of it, what do you guys think? Would it work? Have I forgotten anything? Does anyone have questions, want to challenge it? What does tore think? What about the other mods? __________________ Trollheart: Signature-free since April 2018