Changes to Rule Enforcement

Guybrush · 05-28-2015, 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oriphiel

One of the main appeals of Music Banter is it's "culture". There are plenty of music forums out there that are strictly moderated, if that's what people want. And to be fair, Music Banter usually isn't that bad; watch how quickly personal attacks and spam get deleted out of the main music forums.

I like the people here, but I don't much appreciate some of the apsects of the culture. I definitely think it can improve.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oriphiel

Like I said before, a bit of drama every now and then is a trade off for the leniency that we're all usually pretty responsible about, even if a few people abuse it. I know that I and a few other posters haven't always shown that responsibility, but we're just a small handful out of the massive number of members this forum has, and punishing everyone for the mistakes of the few might just make everyone needlessly angry.

Because of the way forums work, drama between two or a few users can pretty much overshadow most else that goes on. It is extremely visible and so is bad culture in general.

By the way, how is punishing someone who flames or trolls the same as punishing everyone?

Oriphiel · 05-28-2015, 06:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

I like the people here, but I don't much appreciate some of the apsects of the culture. I definitely think it can improve.

Because of the way forums work, drama between two or a few users can pretty much overshadow most else that goes on. It is extremely visible and so is bad culture in general.

First of all, it's very rare for there to be drama that actually bleeds into other threads. And it's even more rare for drama to enter into the music forums. Almost all of it is kept contained in the Lounge, where only people looking for off-topic discussion and letting off steam go. Like I said, these new enforcement policies would force everyone to jump through hoops, all to prevent something that is not that common, doesn't affect the main music forums, and is killed very quickly if it starts to spread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

By the way, how is punishing someone who flames or trolls the same as punishing everyone?

I'll try to rephrase my point. There are only a few members who start fights, and those fights are kept in the Lounge and watched by the moderators, who step in if things get too personal. It doesn't affect most of the members, who are too busy having fun with the music forums to care, and it doesn't "overshadow" any content on Music Banter since it's carefully contained in The Lounge. People who insult others outside of the Lounge are not tolerated for very long (for example, take the recent case of GrtWhtGrvty).

This system works just fine. 90% of Music Banter is just as good as it ever was, and it remains that way no matter what happens in The Lounge. Forcing everyone to have to deal with more restrictions than ever before is not fair to them. It's not fair to them since they shouldn't be kept on a leash because of the actions of just two or three members, and it's not fair to them because the feedback you've received so far has shown that these restrictions you're proposing are neither wanted nor needed.

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Originally Posted by RoxyRollah

I'll buy that for a dollar.

Guybrush · 05-28-2015, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oriphiel

First of all, it's very rare for there to be drama that actually bleeds into other threads. And it's even more rare for drama to enter into the music forums. Almost all of it is kept contained in the Lounge, where only people looking for off-topic discussion and letting off steam go. Like I said, these new enforcement policies would force everyone to jump through hoops, all to prevent something that is not that common, doesn't affect the main music forums, and is killed very quickly if it starts to spread.

I'll try to rephrase my point. There are only a few members who start fights, and those fights are kept in the Lounge and watched by the moderators, who step in if things get too personal. It doesn't affect most of the members, who are too busy having fun with the music forums to care, and it doesn't "overshadow" any content on Music Banter since it's carefully contained in The Lounge. People who insult others outside of the Lounge are not tolerated for very long (for example, take the recent case of GrtWhtGrvty).

This system works just fine. 90% of Music Banter is just as good as it ever was, and it remains that way no matter what happens in The Lounge. Forcing everyone to have to deal with more restrictions than ever before is not fair to them. It's not fair to them since they shouldn't be kept on a leash because of the actions of just two or three members, and it's not fair to them because the feedback you've received so far has shown that these restrictions you're proposing are neither wanted nor needed.

Of course a thief may not want rules about stealing to be enforced. If you have a lawless sitaution, over time you may accumulate a lot of thieves and when the day comes for enforcing old rules, many will complain.

I still think drama and bad culture is highly visible. Threads with drama spend more time near the top of new threads. They spend more time being the thread with the latest post and I do think it spills over in other threads. Either directly or indirectly in that the tone in a drama thread sets precedent for tone in other threads. If you disagree, that's fine.

Also, part of your argument can be turned on its head. If it's only a few members who are unruly, then it's only a few that would really be affected by my suggestion. That means it's easier to implement.

Oriphiel · 05-28-2015, 07:43 AM

It seems that we both just have different ideas of what a healthy forum should be. I personally think that we control ourselves well enough that we don't need these new enforcement measures. I can understand your point of view, thinking that a code of law set in stone would benefit everyone, even if I think that such a code is much more soulless than the fluid set that has gotten Music Banter this far. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, and let others decide for themselves how they feel about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

Of course a thief may not want rules about stealing to be enforced. If you have a lawless sitaution, over time you may accumulate a lot of thieves and when the day comes for enforcing old rules, many will complain.

Cracking down on all of Music Banter for the petty things that occasionally go down in The Lounge is less like raiding a thieves den, and more like putting an entire city under martial law just because one neighborhood has a mild crime problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

I still think drama and bad culture is highly visible. Threads with drama spend more time near the top of new threads. They spend more time being the thread with the latest post and I do think it spills over in other threads. Either directly or indirectly in that the tone in a drama thread sets precedent for tone in other threads. If you disagree, that's fine.

I don't have to disagree; Music Banter does it for me. Just look at all of the current threads. Even though we just went through one of the most tense moments in recent history, with Urban leaving after I pushed him too far, things are already back to normal. The members here would have had every right to bash me in every thread, yet almost all of the fighting was confined to just one. And even then, most members either ignored the thread completely, or went in purely to calm things down.

It didn't spill out. And though it made people tense, it ultimately didn't affect anything. Last night's fight in the "Your Day" thread got pretty nasty as well, but pretty much everyone has already moved past it, and it also didn't affect the Music Forums. The members here are much more mature and responsible than your "den of thieves" analogy makes them out to be. They self-moderate, and they do a pretty good job of it. They have proven that there is no need to put restrictions on them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

Also, part of your argument can be turned on its head. If it's only a few members who are unruly, then it's only a few that would really be affected by my suggestion. That means it's easier to implement.

Look, I get your point, I really do. If people have nothing to hide, than why should they be worried about more strict moderation, right? I'm sorry, but I just don't agree with that. It's the same argument that a pushy cop makes. "Who cares if I pat people down every chance I get? If they've got nothing to hide than it shouldn't matter." "Why won't you let me into your car/house without a warrant? You've got nothing to hide, right?" In theory, you might think they're correct to say that, since an innocent person shouldn't have a reason to not jump through their hoops. But they're also stressing people out, restricting them from going about their day, and so on. The only way to justify the pushy behavior is if it actually does help things, but in the case of MB, we already self moderate to the point where constant pat downs would just be a fruitless annoyance. We've proven that even when really bad things happen, we don't let it go too far.

RoxyRollah · 05-28-2015, 05:57 AM

So, like, we can't all just tighten up a bit. I mean that's really all the problem is. Some posters don't know when to stop. When too much is to much I don't see the point of the infraction system that is built in to the board with no sorta discretion towards the member posting. Can't people police themselves?

Guybrush · 05-28-2015, 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoxyRollah

So, like, we can't all just tighten up a bit. I mean that's really all the problem is. Some posters don't know when to stop. When too much is to much I don't see the point of the infraction system that is built in to the board with no sorta discretion towards the member posting. Can't people police themselves?

No, they can't. Not really.

Let's say you have two users. One only posts long, thought out posts, but few of them. The other posts inane drivel and lots of it. These forums are made in such a way that the latter of these two users will gain lots of attention. He or she would be more visible on new posts or where have you and would have a higher post count. You would run into this person more often on average. The latter person will take over the boards.

There's a problem with forums in that the very nature of how they work rewards the posting behaviour of the second inane user more than it does the first user. To create an environment where the first user thrives as much as the second user, that requires actual effort. So, if you let things slide, they will slide.

The Batlord · 05-28-2015, 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

No, they can't. Not really.

Let's say you have two users. One only posts long, thought out posts, but few of them. The other posts inane drivel and lots of it. These forums are made in such a way that the latter of these two users will gain lots of attention. He or she would be more visible on new posts or where have you and would have a higher post count. You would run into this person more often on average. The latter person will take over the boards.

There's a problem with forums in that the very nature of how they work rewards the posting behaviour of the second inane user more than it does the first user. To create an environment where the first user thrives as much as the second user, that requires actual effort. So, if you let things slide, they will slide.

How will your solution cut back on that? Unless you ban small talk in the Lounge then that's just how it's gonna be. I love you, Tore, but your utopianism gets in the way of your realism sometimes.

Guybrush · 05-28-2015, 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord

How will your solution cut back on that? Unless you ban small talk in the Lounge then that's just how it's gonna be. I love you, Tore, but your utopianism gets in the way of your realism sometimes.

Possibly it won't. As I wrote to Jans, perhaps the short post rule should go. But whatever rules you have, it's better with consistent, predictable rule enforcement.

edit :

It's also good that other mods can see rule enforcement and that there are permanent records.

The Batlord · 05-28-2015, 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

Possibly it won't. As I wrote to Jans, perhaps the short post rule should go. But whatever rules you have, it's better with consistent, predictable rule enforcement.

edit :

It's also good that other mods can see rule enforcement and that there are permanent records.

Another question. Why do you think mods will be inclined to handout infractions? Most mods still don't want to punish their friends, while they don't mind so much newbies and people they don't like.

**Janszoon** · 05-28-2015, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

Possibly it won't. As I wrote to Jans, perhaps the short post rule should go. But whatever rules you have, it's better with consistent, predictable rule enforcement.

edit :

It's also good that other mods can see rule enforcement and that there are permanent records.

I'm on my way to work so I'll reply to your longer post above a little later, but I'd just like to point out that we already have permanent records regardless of whether we use your infraction system so that's not really a workable argument in favor of it.