Changes to Rule Enforcement

Guybrush · 05-28-2015, 06:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

As when you proposed this when you were a mod, I see a lot of hassle and aggravation for everyone (not the least of which would be trying to get the owners of the site to change the current infraction set up) without any perceptible advantage. You even seem to acknowledge in your proposal that this would annoy a lot of members. So what's the point of it?

It's been a while since I was mod, but I think the current infractions system that comes with the board supports my suggested implementation.

Successful implementation would change the MB environment into one which punishes rule breaking behaviour.

Initially, this would indeed cause a lot of aggravation because the current culture is one in which rule breaking is common. There would be a lot of infractions being handed out. Possibly, groups of members would try to sabotage the initiative. But - over time, people would either adjust, leave or get permbanned and the boards we're left with after that minor cataclysm would be a friendlier and more civilized place. I'm hoping some old members would return and I think the board will also appeal more to potential future members who like forums to be civilized.

So, it would cause temporary drama followed by permanent bliss.

Guybrush · 05-28-2015, 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oriphiel

It sounds alright in theory, but I just don't know if it'll make things better. Either way, even if everyone voted for it and the mods decided to go ahead with it, I'd still recommend that we have a trial run first. After trying it for a week or so, we could have another vote/discussion about it.

Trial run is completely possible, but I would suggest a month at least. I don't expect implementation to go smoothly and if you only try it for a week, chances are you would get a taste of the difficult transition into this system, but not the actual benefits of being in it long-term.

It is a long term strategy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oriphiel

After thinking about it, I find these proposed changes a bit strict. Most of the members here are great people who legitimately care about each other, but under those rules (where, for example, saying two stupid things in a week has the potential to get you perma banned), a lot of them would have been banned a long time ago simply for getting carried away, as we all sometimes do. As another example, a person says one stupid thing in the past, and a mod slaps a permanent infraction on them. After that, making just one mistake, even a tiny one, could push them over the limit and automatically ban them.

I wrote "perm" some place where I should have written "temp". Generally speaking, the system should cause rule-breaking users to become tempbanned a lot for up to 7 days. Unless you make a habit of it, you could generally tell someone off two or three times a week without serious repercussions. And either way, you could perhaps stand to be tempbanned for a couple of days? Possibly it was worth it.

If the suggested restrictions are too hard, it's easy to lower the amount of infractions dished out.

I'm generally not in favour of permbans. Unless the user is a robot, he or she has potential for improvement. In the environment caused by successful implementation of my suggestion, unruly users would get tempbanned over and over again anyways. Chances are they wouldn't bother and would either improve or eventually leave. Hence, the need for unusual punishment should be lessened.

Quote:

It's true that the current system of leniency leads to a few abrasive people running around and making trouble, but it has also allowed for us to have members who we're all better off from having met. I think that's a fair trade off. Not to mention that users who were abrasive in the past, but are now more reformed, would never have gotten the chance to change their ways under these new rules. Just my two cents on the situation.

Members would have a lot of opportunity to change their ways, possibly even more so. There are members permbanned today that might still be around (in a reformed way) had my suggestion been implemented earlier.

Oriphiel · 05-28-2015, 06:27 AM

One of the main appeals of Music Banter is it's "culture". There are plenty of music forums out there that are strictly moderated, if that's what people want. And to be fair, Music Banter usually isn't that bad; watch how quickly personal attacks and spam get deleted out of the main music forums.

Like I said before, a bit of drama every now and then is a trade off for the leniency that we're all usually pretty responsible about, even if a few people abuse it. I know that I and a few other posters haven't always shown that responsibility, but we're just a small handful out of the massive number of members this forum has, and punishing everyone for the mistakes of the few might just make everyone needlessly angry.

**Janszoon** · 05-28-2015, 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

It's been a while since I was mod, but I think the current infractions system that comes with the board supports my suggested implementation.

It doesn't, that's why I said it would need to be changed. There currently is a system, but the rules listed and their corresponding points don't line up to your proposal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

Successful implementation would change the MB environment into one which punishes rule breaking behaviour.

Initially, this would indeed cause a lot of aggravation because the current culture is one in which rule breaking is common. There would be a lot of infractions being handed out. Possibly, groups of members would try to sabotage the initiative. But - over time, people would either adjust, leave or get permbanned and the boards we're left with after that minor cataclysm would be a friendlier and more civilized place. I'm hoping some old members would return and I think the board will also appeal more to potential future members who like forums to be civilized.

So, it would cause temporary drama followed by permanent bliss.

How would it achieve the goal you are describing? To me, handing out infractions over things like short posts would just create animosity and stifle conversation. It also serves to pretty much eliminate context on terms of rule enforcement, which I think is a bad idea. A brand new poster who only makes ten one word posts in their first week here is not the same as longtime, active member of the site who happens to make ten one word posts one week.

Oriphiel · 05-28-2015, 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

It also serves to pretty much eliminate context on terms of rule enforcement, which I think is a bad idea.

Agreed. Have we learned nothing from Robocop?

RoxyRollah · 05-28-2015, 06:57 AM

So, like, we can't all just tighten up a bit. I mean that's really all the problem is. Some posters don't know when to stop. When too much is to much I don't see the point of the infraction system that is built in to the board with no sorta discretion towards the member posting. Can't people police themselves?

Guybrush · 05-28-2015, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

It doesn't, that's why I said it would need to be changed. There currently is a system, but the rules listed and their corresponding points don't line up to your proposal.

Okay. I think there's a way to hand out custom infractions. I have one myself from Yac.

Either way, it's just a suggestion. If it's not practical in its current state, perhaps a change in some of the details would help.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jans

How would it achieve the goal you are describing? To me, handing out infractions over things like short posts would just create animosity and stifle conversation. It also serves to pretty much eliminate context on terms of rule enforcement, which I think is a bad idea. A brand new poster who only makes ten one word posts in their first week here is not the same as longtime, active member of the site who happens to make ten one word posts one week.

Possibly the short posts rule should be eliminated. It's not enforced today and so means little. You may be getting hung up on details and not seeing the bigger picture.

And yes, it does eliminate context in the most common situations. That's how it should be. You shouldn't have to treat every enforcement of a rule like it was uncharted territory and an excercise in judgment. Unusual situations should call for that and they're not going away.

Animosity would occur, but less so when people wrap their heads around this. Let's say I decide to insult someone. I know what the rules are, I know what the consequences should be, but I do it anyways. If you then infract me, I'm gonna think "fair cop". I know what I did, probably thought it was worth it and your response was predictable and already described to me in the rules.

Animosity today is generated because punishment is unpredictable and personal. My suggestion makes punishment predictable and unpersonal. Plus, getting an infraction is not the end of the world and people would still get away with things. It just puts a cap on how much of a rule breaker you can be before you disappear for a while.

Guybrush · 05-28-2015, 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoxyRollah

So, like, we can't all just tighten up a bit. I mean that's really all the problem is. Some posters don't know when to stop. When too much is to much I don't see the point of the infraction system that is built in to the board with no sorta discretion towards the member posting. Can't people police themselves?

No, they can't. Not really.

Let's say you have two users. One only posts long, thought out posts, but few of them. The other posts inane drivel and lots of it. These forums are made in such a way that the latter of these two users will gain lots of attention. He or she would be more visible on new posts or where have you and would have a higher post count. You would run into this person more often on average. The latter person will take over the boards.

There's a problem with forums in that the very nature of how they work rewards the posting behaviour of the second inane user more than it does the first user. To create an environment where the first user thrives as much as the second user, that requires actual effort. So, if you let things slide, they will slide.

RoxyRollah · 05-28-2015, 07:11 AM

OOooh I am trying to to screenshot my infract since we are having show and tell..

Latest Infractions Received
Post Date Expires Points Reason Posted By
Reputation 05-01-2014
09:12 AM Expired 1 Insulted Other Member(s) Urban Hat€monger ?

Meh, close enough.

The Batlord · 05-28-2015, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

No, they can't. Not really.

Let's say you have two users. One only posts long, thought out posts, but few of them. The other posts inane drivel and lots of it. These forums are made in such a way that the latter of these two users will gain lots of attention. He or she would be more visible on new posts or where have you and would have a higher post count. You would run into this person more often on average. The latter person will take over the boards.

There's a problem with forums in that the very nature of how they work rewards the posting behaviour of the second inane user more than it does the first user. To create an environment where the first user thrives as much as the second user, that requires actual effort. So, if you let things slide, they will slide.

How will your solution cut back on that? Unless you ban small talk in the Lounge then that's just how it's gonna be. I love you, Tore, but your utopianism gets in the way of your realism sometimes.

05-28-2015, 06:27 AM	#13 (permalink)
Oriphiel Ask me how! Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: The States Posts: 5,354	One of the main appeals of Music Banter is it's "culture". There are plenty of music forums out there that are strictly moderated, if that's what people want. And to be fair, Music Banter usually isn't that bad; watch how quickly personal attacks and spam get deleted out of the main music forums. Like I said before, a bit of drama every now and then is a trade off for the leniency that we're all usually pretty responsible about, even if a few people abuse it. I know that I and a few other posters haven't always shown that responsibility, but we're just a small handful out of the massive number of members this forum has, and punishing everyone for the mistakes of the few might just make everyone needlessly angry.