Changes to Rule Enforcement

Freebase Dali · 05-31-2015, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

So basically we should be quicker to drop the banhammer on longstanding members? That doesn't seem like it would make the place a more pleasant environment.

Not only this, but:

People may see it as a situation where we're banning noobs but not longstanders based on preferential treatment, but the reality of the matter is that noobs are easier to ban without affecting the overall community because they haven't invested anything into that community that would be missed.

Jans and all the other mods know EXACTLY how much we debated behind the scenes regarding Polama/Sansa/whatever because we knew the trouble she was causing but we also knew her value to many in the community. In the long run, we all decided that it was best for the community at large to make the decision we made after many slaps on the wrist. There were a lot of times before that point where a few mods advocated her removal far before it actually happened, but our approach was to give her a chance and finally do something when it became apparent that those chances were being taken for granted.

It's the same thing with any other longstander. Context has to be taken into account. Chances have to be given and the person has to fully show that they are unwilling to compromise before I, and dare I say much of the mod team, are willing to just cut them out. I think it's more wise to approach a longstanding contributor, in whatever way that is, differently than someone who just showed up on the doorstep a week ago. Not because it's preferential treatment, but because decisions you make regarding people that have formed relationships with many in a community is going to have a big enough effect for you to probably need to make sure you're doing what's best.

This isn't to say that the more friends you have here and the more you're around and creating content, the more immune to banning you are. CaptainCaveman, Sansa, and others proved that isn't the case at all. But I think a responsible moderator is not going to see longstanders and noobs as the same variables in the equation. It might be easier, but I don't think it takes into consideration what actually makes the site work.

Basically, try to help before trying to rid. Point systems in lieu of judgment puts the onus solely on the member, but point systems can't think. You could easily troll the hell out of this site just by waiting for your points to expire. What then... now we defer to moderator judgement? Why not let us judge in the first place?

fiddler · 05-31-2015, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neapolitan

Read what I said carefully... unless someone else posted their subs/slaves in plug, than so far she is the only one. Everything else you said is a red herring.

I think since that room is part of MusicBanter community then certain rules should carry over. And that includes:

Please, read the Music Banter forum rules.

I was under the impression that it did carry over because that was the chat, I could be mistaken, though.

As for the topic at hand, I honestly think the infraction system is a good idea, however, I would recommend the following:

Amending the current rules and allowing members to voice their opinions on the rules before they are finalized;
The vBullentin infraction system automatically sends the pm - all you as a mod have to do is give a reason for the infraction and send it off;
Moderators should apply the rules equally to all members, regardless of how long they have been on the forums (ex. if I tell TH to f*ck off and he tells me to f*ck off we should both receive the same infraction point);
It should also be noted that while the majority of us are adults, there are teens here and we should attempt to tone our language for their sake. However, there should also be an "adult-only" section where the language/content rules are slightly more relaxed;
Nobody is above the law, meaning that mods should receive the same punishment if they were to tell me to f*ck off as I would if I were to tell someone to f off;
Lastly there's nothing wrong with multiple warnings for the same offense. I would leave that up to the moderator in question, as long as they are consistent with it.

Just a few of my thoughts.

~~Soulflower~~ · 05-31-2015, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freebase Dali

Not only this, but:

People may see it as a situation where we're banning noobs but not longstanders based on preferential treatment, but the reality of the matter is that noobs are easier to ban without affecting the overall community because they haven't invested anything into that community that would be missed.

Jans and all the other mods know EXACTLY how much we debated behind the scenes regarding Polama/Sansa/whatever because we knew the trouble she was causing but we also knew her value to many in the community. In the long run, we all decided that it was best for the community at large to make the decision we made after many slaps on the wrist. There were a lot of times before that point where a few mods advocated her removal far before it actually happened, but our approach was to give her a chance and finally do something when it became apparent that those chances were being taken for granted.

It's the same thing with any other longstander. Context has to be taken into account. Chances have to be given and the person has to fully show that they are unwilling to compromise before I, and dare I say much of the mod team, are willing to just cut them out. I think it's more wise to approach a longstanding contributor, in whatever way that is, differently than someone who just showed up on the doorstep a week ago. Not because it's preferential treatment, but because decisions you make regarding people that have formed relationships with many in a community is going to have a big enough effect for you to probably need to make sure you're doing what's best.

This isn't to say that the more friends you have here and the more you're around and creating content, the more immune to banning you are. CaptainCaveman, Sansa, and others proved that isn't the case at all. But I think a responsible moderator is not going to see longstanders and noobs as the same variables in the equation. It might be easier, but I don't think it takes into consideration what actually makes the site work.

Basically, try to help before trying to rid. Point systems in lieu of judgment puts the onus solely on the member, but point systems can't think. You could easily troll the hell out of this site just by waiting for your points to expire. What then... now we defer to moderator judgement? Why not let us judge in the first place?

But the problem I have with some of the moderators is that there not fair. And a lot of times they give infractions to people that they don't like instead of objectively and maturely moderating the forums.

Also, I notice that there are moderators that are very disrespectful to members: call them out their name and are quite cruel here but they are oddly still moderators.

That's a problem.

I don't see how a member can be a moderator when they are disrespectful to other members themselves. Thats not a good role model for how a moderator should conduct themselves.

~~Soulflower~~ · 05-31-2015, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neapolitan

Read what I said carefully... unless someone else posted their subs/slaves in plug, than so far she is the only one. Everything else you said is a red herring.

I think since that room is part of MusicBanter community then certain rules should carry over. And that includes:

Please, read the Music Banter forum rules.

I am telling you other members have posted sexual and porno like videos before. In addition, people post non music related videos in the plug ALL the time (which is not what the plug is for but members do, do it) so I think you should research more before you boldly claim another member is the ONLY one that does something. That was like the only one time she did that, that is not something she normally does and I can honestly say that because I have plugged with her numerous of times.

You have done some questionable things yourself in that plug for someone who is suppose to run it.

You skipped me multiple times one night in the plug. I was confused as to why you did that. I had said nothing and did nothing to you that night and you have also done it before.

I didn't say anything but just ignored it then.... but I found that to be beyond immature and a blatant abuse of authority.

RoxyRollah · 05-31-2015, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soulflower

But the problem I have with some of the moderators is that there not fair. And a lot of times they give infractions to people that they don't like instead of objectively and maturely moderating the forums.

Also, I notice that there are moderators that are very disrespectful to members: call them out their name and are quite cruel here but they are oddly still moderators.

That's a problem.

I don't see how a member can be a moderator when they are disrespectful to other members themselves. Thats not a good role model for how a moderator should conduct themselves.

Don't make me kill again.

RoxyRollah · 05-31-2015, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soulflower

I am telling you other members have posted sexual and porno like videos before. In addition, people post non music related videos in the plug ALL the time (which is not what the plug is for but members do, do it) so I think you should research more before you boldly claim another member is the ONLY one that does something. That was like the only one time she did that, that is not something she normally does and I can honestly say that because I have plugged with her numerous of times.

You have done some questionable things yourself in that plug for someone who is suppose to run it.

You skipped me multiple times one night in the plug. I was confused as to why you did that. I had said nothing and did nothing to you that night and you have also done it before.

I didn't say anything but just ignored it then.... but I found that to be beyond immature and a blatant abuse of authority.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soulflower

But the problem I have with some of the moderators is that there not fair. And a lot of times they give infractions to people that they don't like instead of objectively and maturely moderating the forums.

Also, I notice that there are moderators that are very disrespectful to members: call them out their name and are quite cruel here but they are oddly still moderators.

That's a problem.

I don't see how a member can be a moderator when they are disrespectful to other members themselves. Thats not a good role model for how a moderator should conduct themselves.

Check your pms shortly.

Freebase Dali · 05-31-2015, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soulflower

But the problem I have with some of the moderators is that there not fair. And a lot of times they give infractions to people that they don't like instead of objectively and maturely moderating the forums.

I'm not quite sure how you're able to deduce the motivations for infractions given by moderators. Mostly because A) they're not public unless someone says they got an infraction and isn't lying, and B) you have no way of judging what went on behind the scenes with the mods regarding the incident.

I feel that maybe you are becoming disillusioned by your own assumptions here.

Quote:

Also, I notice that there are moderators that are very disrespectful to members: call them out their name and are quite cruel here but they are oddly still moderators.

That's a problem.

I don't see how a member can be a moderator when they are disrespectful to other members themselves. Thats not a good role model for how a moderator should conduct themselves.

I'd be interested to see some examples of this (not as a challenge) that are outside of the now-defunct "Spill Your Guts" thread.

Lisnaholic · 05-31-2015, 08:19 PM

Every contributing member here owes a big debt of gratitude to the mods because they are volunteering to make an effort for the sake of this community.

Even after reading this thread, I'm still ambivalent about the issue of being stricter about MB rules. Tore makes some very good points, but as Goofle says, what we have at present seems to work pretty well in general. If the mods felt that tore’s infraction system would help, I’d be fine with that too - or trying it for a month as VEGANGELICA suggests. Tweak a couple of the rules tore laid out, lose the "short post" one, and I don't think members would be living in the fear that Trollheart imagines.

However, no mod has shown enthusiasm for the proposal so far, and for me that's the clincher. Tore explained how his system might, at one level, help mods to do their (volunteer) jobs more efficiently, but the mods aren't convinced, and after all they'd be the ones implementing any new system. Whatever they decide is good enough for me.

DwnWthVwls · 05-31-2015, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soulflower

...

She's played her sub videos at least 4-5 times when I was in there. I don't mind, but it definitely wasn't a one time thing. Also, no one else has ever played anything that graphic. I'm actually surprised she played it with Nea in there it's usually only when she knows no one will be offended or care.

Freebase Dali · 05-31-2015, 08:25 PM

I'm willing to try anything that works. However, I need to be convinced that there's an actual problem I'm trying to fix. If the discussion is that there's an issue the mods need to be able to fix, I'm going to place more stock in the majority of the members of the community rather than an idea to fix what isn't broken.

Myself personally, I don't see any different problems here than I did in 2009 when I joined, and having been a mod for most of the time I've been here, I don't see us struggling behind the scenes apart from sometimes debating on what to do with a longstanding member. But it's less about systems in those cases and more about us doing our job and collectively deciding to do what's best for the community. This has not been a failure in my eyes.

If the community feels as though we're not addressing a problem, then I ask the community to tell us. But "community" is not one person. It's all of us.

05-31-2015, 08:19 PM	#188 (permalink)
Lisnaholic ...here to hear... Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: He lives on Love Street Posts: 4,444	Every contributing member here owes a big debt of gratitude to the mods because they are volunteering to make an effort for the sake of this community. Even after reading this thread, I'm still ambivalent about the issue of being stricter about MB rules. Tore makes some very good points, but as Goofle says, what we have at present seems to work pretty well in general. If the mods felt that tore’s infraction system would help, I’d be fine with that too - or trying it for a month as VEGANGELICA suggests. Tweak a couple of the rules tore laid out, lose the "short post" one, and I don't think members would be living in the fear that Trollheart imagines. However, no mod has shown enthusiasm for the proposal so far, and for me that's the clincher. Tore explained how his system might, at one level, help mods to do their (volunteer) jobs more efficiently, but the mods aren't convinced, and after all they'd be the ones implementing any new system. Whatever they decide is good enough for me. __________________ "Am I enjoying this moment? I know of it and perhaps that is enough." - Sybille Bedford, 1953

05-31-2015, 08:25 PM	#190 (permalink)
Freebase Dali Partying on the inside Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,584	I'm willing to try anything that works. However, I need to be convinced that there's an actual problem I'm trying to fix. If the discussion is that there's an issue the mods need to be able to fix, I'm going to place more stock in the majority of the members of the community rather than an idea to fix what isn't broken. Myself personally, I don't see any different problems here than I did in 2009 when I joined, and having been a mod for most of the time I've been here, I don't see us struggling behind the scenes apart from sometimes debating on what to do with a longstanding member. But it's less about systems in those cases and more about us doing our job and collectively deciding to do what's best for the community. This has not been a failure in my eyes. If the community feels as though we're not addressing a problem, then I ask the community to tell us. But "community" is not one person. It's all of us. __________________