Changes to Rule Enforcement

Key · 05-31-2015, 02:45 PM

I suppose I should put in a few points that I've had on my mind since everyone else seems to be doing so.

I said earlier in this thread that I really don't see any reason to change any rule enforcement that goes on at this site, and I stick by that. If this forum was as bad as some people think it is, they don't have to stick around like they do. Yes, there are rules that do get broken, and yeah, the mod team does send out warnings when that happens. 99% of the time, whatever or whoever was warned usually comes to a stop and the forum moves on from it. That's at least what i've seen in the past. The mods here aren't always cracking down on every single small broken rules here and there, because there really isn't any reason to. I would hate to see this forum become a place where every swear word or insult towards a member gets frowned upon / punished. Most of the time, when two or three members are insulting each other, it's either resolved between those members, or it's just a case of friendly teasing, which I myself am usually involved in. The fact that there are some people that think this forum needs to work on following rules, are some of the same people that tend to break those same rules. This forum is far more relaxed and fun to be at than most of the other forums on the internet right now. I do want to bring up the point as well that there's a reason people keep coming back to this site even when they feel they are fed up with it. It's the people, and the environment, and the fun of all of it. The harsh environment of this place at times is actually one of this sites best qualities, because it really allows you to see sides of people that you wouldn't normally see. If this place was more strict and "military school-ish" as some have said, we'd in return get a lot of members who have a shield up and would never truly show people who they really are or how they feel about certain things, because they'd feel they weren't allowed to. I think this whole thing about people needing to follow rules should really just be up to the individual people to realize that they need to mellow out in some cases, the mods shouldn't have anything to do with enforcing rules. And if people break rules, well...look at it this way: is it having a negative effect on the site or the people around here? If not, don't worry about it.

Trollheart · 05-31-2015, 02:45 PM

Yeah, I would definitely echo the lovely Roxy's sentiments. You guys do not get enough credit. It is a job that takes up a lot of your time and half of what you do we don't see, but if it wasn't done we'd be swamped in spam like my inbox. So while I very much respect Mojo and don't mod so I can't comment on the internal workings of the ModCave, I would say that each of you have your own approach to fixing problems here, they all work and I can't quite honestly think of one single mod here who I had a problem with. Even memberwise, it's a very very short list.

Oh, and bring back Right-Track!

Seriously, Jansz, don't get disheartened. Your work and your tireless efforts to maintain some sort of order here without making it into a police state are definitely appreciated.

WWWP · 05-31-2015, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

I'm curious how that would actually work though. It's easy to say "just infract everyone and problem solved", but on a practical level how would that be implemented? Modding is something people volunteer to do in their free time, not a full time job, so it's difficult make sure the entire site is patrolled thoroughly enough for the kind of consistent enforcement you're talking about. Also, a large chunk of the infracted will, of course, think that their posts weren't off-topic or needless so there will be the endless complaints and questioning that the mod team will have to contend with, and which more than likely will manifest itself as a whole lot of forum drama.

Yeah, you're right. I've never been a mod of anything with this scope, I really have no idea what the time commitment looks like, that's something I admittedly hadn't considered. The system I envisioned does look a bit too idealistic in retrospect, I really have no idea how it could be implemented.

Mojo · 05-31-2015, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

Honestly, this just makes me feel like giving up. I'd comment on all the things I disagree with about this post but it hardly seems worth it.

Well I'm refraining from naming names, but when I was modding there were a handful of users that had all been here a long time, and the mod forum was awash with discussion about them. The majority were of the opinion they should have been banned already.

My point is it doesn't need to be a debate or a discussion.

~~Soulflower~~ · 05-31-2015, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mojo

Tore, Pedestrian, NSW and I all gave up our modship for at least some overlapping, similar reasons, and those reasons were all directly related to the way in which this site is modded.

Someone said earlier in this thread that there's no point trying to introduce something like what tore is suggesting because even if we do, mods are going to give certain members preferential treatment, when in fact that is what is happening already and it has always been the case.

I have no issue whatsoever with any of the mods here but I do think the site in general is modded like crap. Drama has come up time and time again in this thread and for good reason; drama has, at times, overtaken this site. This goes back years.

Drama has overtaken this site in many ways. We have allowed trolls to roam free for months, if not years, until finally deciding to pull the trigger. These trolls have proceeded to make this site a thoroughly annoying and unpleasant place to visit. We've also had members identified as trouble-makers to the point the site becomes divided in two and brimming with discussion around whether or not said member should still be here or should be banned. This kind of discussion, frankly, should rarely spill over onto the boards, because the rules should be tight and specific enough to avoid any kind of debate. They do however also need to be enforced.

I gave up my spot modding here because the drama didn't stop at the public boards but it spilled over into the mod forum also. While on the public boards we had trolls pissing people off, and cliques forming within, some calling for them to be banned, some jumping to their defence, and so on the mod forum we had a group of moderators also discussing and debating the same people and events. Should they be banned? Have they warranted a ban? Are people being too touchy? Can't they just block them? Should they need to block them? Will there be a backlash if we ban them? Is it worth a backlash? And so on and so forth. I'm sad to say that these discussions started to resemble too closely what could be perceived as a discussion around what the mods could maybe even do to have these troublesome members effectively hang themselves in a way in which nobody would be surprised to see them permanently banned.

I attempted to create a discussion within the mod forum around a system similar to what tore is proposing, where the rules are potentially updated and where the rules are most definitely better and more consistently enforced. Not to crack down harder on the users of the forum, not to start punishing people for minor offences, but to ensure everyone is being treated in the same way. Some trolls are clever and have much more time on their hands than you may think, in which to keep coming back to disrupt and ruffle feathers, and these are the ones that always created the most discussion because one minute you think they are breaking rules and intentionally pissing people off and the next you think they are just having a laugh and are actually here for genuine reasons. With a more consistent system in place these people would be banned much earlier on, the forums would be disrupted far less, this would be a much more enjoyable place to visit, and as long as everyone is very clear on what the rules are and how they are being enforced, there should be zero debate around the actions of the mods.

If you really feel you completely understand the rules here 100% and are without a doubt that they are being enforced correctly, then fair play to you. I'm not in a place to argue. But I would suggest that maybe you just don't see it.

Some members here will be banned for insulting someone or pissing off a mod, but take a member who has been here years and if they lose their head and commit the very same offence, they will get a tap on the wrists via a subtle PM and told to stop being such a dick. Then take into consideration that we have many different mods, all with their own favourites, all with their own users that they dont care for, all modding this place very differently, because that is the system we have in place. Yes we have rules, yes we have an infraction system, but we dont use them. We allow each person we entrust with modding this place to do it their own way and how they see fit, so is it really any surprise that every few weeks or months our boards are filled with drama about the latest poster here that is ruffling peoples feathers? It happens just as much in the mod forum too, believe me. It seems worthy of considering whether that is really still the best way to run this place.

Excellent response!

This has been the most honest and truthful post I have read in this entire thread.

It is sad that is will probably get overlooked.

Key · 05-31-2015, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soulflower

It is sad that is will probably get overlooked.

...but plenty of people responded to his post.

~~Soulflower~~ · 05-31-2015, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mojo

Well I'm refraining from naming names, but when I was modding there were a handful of users that had all been here a long time, and the mod forum was awash with discussion about them. The majority were of the opinion they should have been banned already.

My point is it doesn't need to be a debate or a discussion.

Pretty much

This is the Bottom line.

Just ENFORCE the rules.

There doesn't need to be a discussion. In addition there should be all new moderators besides maybe one or two people.

YorkeDaddy · 05-31-2015, 04:31 PM

This has been a fascinating, respectful discussion on all sides so bravo everyone, although as usual Soulflower antagonizes everyone on the other side so there's the exception.

I wouldn't be opposed to a trial run even though I personally still don't think a change needs to be made. I don't think a month is long enough to dramatically change the place but if we put it up to a vote I'd probably say give it a shot.

**Janszoon** · 05-31-2015, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mojo

Well I'm refraining from naming names, but when I was modding there were a handful of users that had all been here a long time, and the mod forum was awash with discussion about them. The majority were of the opinion they should have been banned already.

My point is it doesn't need to be a debate or a discussion.

So basically we should be quicker to drop the banhammer on longstanding members? That doesn't seem like it would make the place a more pleasant environment.

Chula Vista · 05-31-2015, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

So basically we should be quicker to drop the banhammer on longstanding members? That doesn't seem like it would make the place a more pleasant environment.

If a newbie screws up it's worse than if a long time member screws up in the same manner?

50 shades of grey indeed.

05-31-2015, 02:45 PM	#162 (permalink)
Trollheart Born to be mild Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 404 Not Found Posts: 26,994	Yeah, I would definitely echo the lovely Roxy's sentiments. You guys do not get enough credit. It is a job that takes up a lot of your time and half of what you do we don't see, but if it wasn't done we'd be swamped in spam like my inbox. So while I very much respect Mojo and don't mod so I can't comment on the internal workings of the ModCave, I would say that each of you have your own approach to fixing problems here, they all work and I can't quite honestly think of one single mod here who I had a problem with. Even memberwise, it's a very very short list. Oh, and bring back Right-Track! Seriously, Jansz, don't get disheartened. Your work and your tireless efforts to maintain some sort of order here without making it into a police state are definitely appreciated. __________________ Trollheart: Signature-free since April 2018

05-31-2015, 02:45 PM	#161 (permalink)
Key . Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 13,153	I suppose I should put in a few points that I've had on my mind since everyone else seems to be doing so. I said earlier in this thread that I really don't see any reason to change any rule enforcement that goes on at this site, and I stick by that. If this forum was as bad as some people think it is, they don't have to stick around like they do. Yes, there are rules that do get broken, and yeah, the mod team does send out warnings when that happens. 99% of the time, whatever or whoever was warned usually comes to a stop and the forum moves on from it. That's at least what i've seen in the past. The mods here aren't always cracking down on every single small broken rules here and there, because there really isn't any reason to. I would hate to see this forum become a place where every swear word or insult towards a member gets frowned upon / punished. Most of the time, when two or three members are insulting each other, it's either resolved between those members, or it's just a case of friendly teasing, which I myself am usually involved in. The fact that there are some people that think this forum needs to work on following rules, are some of the same people that tend to break those same rules. This forum is far more relaxed and fun to be at than most of the other forums on the internet right now. I do want to bring up the point as well that there's a reason people keep coming back to this site even when they feel they are fed up with it. It's the people, and the environment, and the fun of all of it. The harsh environment of this place at times is actually one of this sites best qualities, because it really allows you to see sides of people that you wouldn't normally see. If this place was more strict and "military school-ish" as some have said, we'd in return get a lot of members who have a shield up and would never truly show people who they really are or how they feel about certain things, because they'd feel they weren't allowed to. I think this whole thing about people needing to follow rules should really just be up to the individual people to realize that they need to mellow out in some cases, the mods shouldn't have anything to do with enforcing rules. And if people break rules, well...look at it this way: is it having a negative effect on the site or the people around here? If not, don't worry about it.