Missing Posters Bulletin Board

[The Batlord]

I guess he's thinking of What Is to Be Done?

[Lucem Ferre]

Originally Posted by jwb

bruh the manifesto was written in 1848 by marx and engels... Give your head a shake

LOL I mixed them up. Yeah, you're right. Lenin is still in idiot though. In my opinion.

[Lucem Ferre]

Originally Posted by SoundgardenRocks

Obviously, as we've already touched on, state collectivization - taking by force from agricultural owners - causes resentment, distrust, and antipathy. Like a factory worker today, the laborer on the collectivized farm is just as, if not more alienated from the fruits of their labor. This undoubtedly results in a lack of incentive to be more productive than necessary. When people are forced to work and aren't often allowed control of their surpluses, they look to avoid that work at every turn.

Central planning does not do an effective job at reacting to local conditions. Those in power did not understand to the extent that they needed to properly plan for the plots of the land that they used in collectivized farming, unlike the local farmers that previously owned those plots of lands. They had a prototypical set up that they used that was cookie-cutter pasted across the country without regards or changes to best capitalize on local conditions. Most of the time, party members made decisions on the collectivized farms, even if they weren't the best qualified ones to make those decisions.

Another problem with big collectivized farms is that they were almost all met with diseconomy of scale issues (whereas the Soviet party members believed it would be an economy of scale). What this meant in practice is that these big collective farms produced less food per worker than the smaller farms did. The problems caused by the large collectivized farms were greater than the benefits that the party higher ups imagined there would be. Obviously, that's not an economically effective model in the long run.

Not to mention, if I recall correctly, many of the people in charge of these collectivized farming operations were no strangers to fudging numbers to "meet" production quotas - lest they wished to be punished.

In short, my position is that locally owned private farms would have produced more resources in the timeframe than collectivized farms did - it's just that the yields wouldn't have been in control of the state - which would've made it harder for them to use as exports to fund rapid industrialization - which was the whole point anyway.

EDIT:



Just to be clear, the policies of collectivization did not just entail letting the farmers do as they had been doing and the government lackeys coming by every month to pick up their share of the yield, it involved the amalgamation of what was indivdually owned and run property and land into state owned and run property and land. The government did not run it effectively.

I can see how the way they did collectivism added to the famine now. So I'm just wrong and it probably was mostly the Soviet Union's **** policy rather than the drought.

[The Batlord]

Originally Posted by Lucem Ferre

I can see how the way they did collectivism added to the famine now. So I'm just wrong and it probably was mostly the Soviet Union's **** policy rather than the drought.

Also this.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism

[Lucem Ferre]

Dictators love their pseudoscience.

Edit: That's why OH thinks agency is scientifically disproven. Ohhhhhhhhhh I brought it full circle.

[The Batlord]

If the circle is your gaping anus.

[jwb]

Originally Posted by Lucem Ferre

But how?

You're not explaining how collectivizing in it's self caused a lack of resources, just what they did with the resources once they collected them.

Resources don't just magically disappear when you gather them together. If distributed properly at most it thins it out across the population. So it wouldn't be collectivization in it's self but what they did when they gathered all of their resources. Like selling the resources to build industry.

Or am I missing something?

The irony is that the Russian peasants lived in small small agrarian communes that certain russian socialists took inspiration from in the late 19th/early 20th century. There were even attempts to indoctrinate them into marxist thought but the peasants were not particularly receptive to these attempts. The thought process was that they already existed in a sort of primitive form of communism so they would be the perfect recruits for such a movement. Problem being that while they might trust their neighbor enough to throw in together they don't trust a larger collective on a national scale. Such a concept is just utterly alien to someone who has always lives in a small tight knit community.

[The Batlord]

Originally Posted by jwb

The irony is that the Russian peasants lived in small small agrarian communes that certain russian socialists took inspiration from in the late 19th/early 20th century. There were even attempts to indoctrinate them into marxist thought but the peasants were not particularly receptive to these attempts. The thought process was that they already existed in a sort of primitive form of communism so they would be the perfect recruits for such a movement. Problem being that while they might trust their neighbor enough to throw in together they don't trust a larger collective on a national scale. Such a concept is just utterly alien to someone who has always lives in a small tight knit community.

Yeah there was actually an anarchist movement kind of at the same time as the Bolsheviks and years before who wanted to go to the peasants and educate them to make a peasant revolution possible and it went exactly as well as you might imagine a bunch of college kids moving into peasant farms and trying to educate those peasants on socialism might go.

And so those college kids were like hey this isn't working so why don't we just start planting bombs to kill rich people?
?

[jwb]

Originally Posted by Lucem Ferre

LOL I mixed them up. Yeah, you're right. Lenin is still in idiot though. In my opinion.

he's far from an idiot.

He had a fairly well articulated interpretation of marxism.. and he saw a clear opportunity for revolution in 1917... He was fully aware the conditions in russia weren't ideal but when you see a window you either take it or sit back and hope the country will gradually industrialize through capitalism and then another window will arise. You willing to make that bet? A window hasn't arisen in any of the other countries that allowed the stage of capitalism to take its course... Still waiting. Like the Christians still waiting for Jesus to come back.

Before you call lenin or even the bolsheviks in general stupid put yourself in their shoes and tell me how you usher 1917 russia into a successful communist utopia...

[Lucem Ferre]

Strictly regulated private industry like China is doing right now.

Or Vietnam.

Both have gone through significant growth in doing so.

Oh, and perhaps don't be so authoritarian and consider the rights of the people that the ideology is built around.