Missing Posters Bulletin Board

[Lucem Ferre]

Ok so you're serious, so here's an elaborate answer. No I didn't misspeak, you're just not getting my point. You have to understand that I'm not like you, I don't bluff or double down in arguments. I did mention atomic bombs and stars in haste, which destroy mass and you can argue that mass isn't matter, so not a good example, but you can still create and destroy matter. I'll explain: conservation of matter still holds, if you assign a negative lepton number to antimatter, but that does NOT mean matter can't be destroyed or created, which was my point. Matter is destroyed and created all the time on a quantum scale. Why national geographic says you can't: physics comes at multiple levels. Many things you're taught in school are technically untrue, but at a practical level they hold and are true. In classical physics, you can't create/destroy matter, and no writer for national geographic is going to explain about quantum field theory to its readers, and how matter is just an energy excitation of a field. But among physists, if you talk about destroying matter, no one bats an eye

See, it's plebian physics.

[The Batlord]

Was this a part off a greater discussion of free will and he was just getting caught up in things he wasn't aware of and being aggressively insecure about things he was worried might undermine his position in ways he wasn't aware of?

[Lucem Ferre]

Originally Posted by The Batlord

I mean if Marie was disagreeing with a basic Newtonian law and that's all there is to it then I can relate to his frustration. Whatever our disagreements I've always 100% been with OH as far as a naturalistic model of the universe and what that entails for free will.

That's kind of simpleton thinking IMO.

Because it's the exact same thinking as his "binary" bull**** where everything has to be black and white. Either we'd have free will or we don't and nobody ever considered that free will could be a spectrum while completely ignoring my free will would depend on the cause and effect relationship of the universe to even exist take because it was antithetical to the hard stance you already took. It's just closed minded screaming delusions like when you tell a Christian there probably isn't a god and Jesus was made up. "There is a God! My book is proof! The Bible! The Bible!" Well here's an example of how free will could exist but in limited quantities. "Free will doesn't exist! Cause & effect! Cause & effect!"

[Lucem Ferre]

Originally Posted by The Batlord

Was this a part off a greater discussion of free will and he was just getting caught up in things he wasn't aware of and being aggressively insecure about things he was worried might undermine his position in ways he wasn't aware of?

Originally Posted by Lucem Ferre

He didn't get banned this time. He was just having a Malthusian argument with elph and said that matter doesn't just produce it's self out of thin air and Marie was like, "well technically" and he tried to ridicule her for it and she of course schooled him because it's her job to know this stuff. Then we never saw him again. Our beautiful hawk flew away from us.

Like, dude. It's literally all there. What are you not understanding?

[The Batlord]

I mean how the **** are you defining "free will"? At best "free will" is a flowery poetic description of just not having a gun to your head when you make decisions and at worst it's using quantum mechanics that nobody understands to invent magical reasons why the chemical reactions in your brain aren't deciding every choice you make as if you were a robot. I mean free will just doesn't make sense as a meaningful concept if you believe in science and don't believe in magic.

[Frownland]

descriptive=/=prescriptive

[Frownland]

And the chemicals in your brain are your brain unless you think that the mind and the body are distinct.

[Lucem Ferre]

Originally Posted by The Batlord

I mean how the **** are you defining "free will"? At best "free will" is a flowery poetic description of just not having a gun to your head when you make decisions and at worst it's using quantum mechanics that nobody understands to invent magical reasons why the chemical reactions in your brain aren't deciding every choice you make as if you were a robot. I mean free will just doesn't make sense as a meaningful concept if you believe in science and don't believe in magic.

Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it's magic. Free will would be the ability to choose a desired outcome. That would depend on the cause and effect relationship of the universe because there would be no meaning to choices if they had no affect. Just because it's influenced doesn't mean they aren't still YOUR will at the end of the day. It's literally what separates you from a rock that has no choice in how it reacts to something. It has no desired outcome. That would be why free will isn't an absolute like you guys argue it as, and it would be a spectrum depending on your ability to comprehend how things influence you and how you can influence other things. Of course you're not completely free and you'll always be limited by varying factors. Even going with the neurological thing, that wouldn't disprove free will. It only proves that how you process influencing events to determine what choice you want to make would be dependent on the cause & effect relationship of the world.

[Lucem Ferre]

Originally Posted by Frownland

And the chemicals in your brain are your brain unless you think that the mind and the body are distinct.

Exactly. Pointing out that who you are is just a natural part of the reactionary way the universe works doesn't exactly disprove free will as much as it proves my take that free will needs cause & effect to exist.

[The Batlord]

Originally Posted by Frownland

descriptive=/=prescriptive

Meaningless.

Originally Posted by Frownland

And the chemicals in your brain are your brain unless you think that the mind and the body are distinct.

Then you're agreeing with me that "choice" is a poetic description of reaction to stimuli.

Originally Posted by Lucem Ferre

Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it's magic. Free will would be the ability to choose a desired outcome. That would depend on the cause and effect relationship of the universe because there would be no meaning to choices if they had no affect. Just because it's influenced doesn't mean they aren't still YOUR will at the end of the day. It's literally what separates you from a rock that has no choice in how it reacts to something. It has no desired outcome. That would be why free will isn't an absolute like you guys argue it as, and it would be a spectrum depending on your ability to comprehend how things influence you and how you can influence other things. Of course you're not completely free and you'll always be limited by varying factors.

Yeah you're literally describing a flowery poetic description of just not having a gun to your head when making decisions. What you're describing still relies on scientific equations deciding your responses. You're just desperate for a more magical reality where you aren't a biological robot.

Even going with the neurological thing, that wouldn't disprove free will. It only proves that how you process influencing events to determine what choice you want to make would be dependent on the cause & effect relationship of the world.

Yeah that's not free will unless free will is a poetic flourish that has no real world meaning. You keep describing exactly what I'm talking about but insist on interpreting it in a poetic way that has no real world meaning because it would make you feel bad.