The Constructive Ideas Thread

[Burning Down]

Originally Posted by Black Francis

Cheesus there's always some drama here, why can't we all just get along?

If you look closely, there isn't a whole lot of drama going on now, and if it's happening in this thread there is only one person instigating it.

[Black Francis]

Originally Posted by Burning Down

If you look closely, there isn't a whole lot of drama going on now, and if it's happening in this thread there is only one person instigating it.

yea but that guy sopsych is now banned

[GuitarBizarre]

Originally Posted by Black Francis

yea but that guy sopsych is now banned

Then we can all be happy. Hurrah.

[djchameleon]

Originally Posted by Black Francis

Cheesus there's always some drama here, why can't we all just get along?

I understand coming into this thread and wanting to comment about certain posts in it but this thread should really be more about the constructive ideas. It's fine to come in and say you agree or disagree with someone's idea but just to throw in a general statement like that isn't really what this thread is supposed to be about as dedicated in the OP.

[VEGANGELICA]

Originally Posted by GuitarBizarre

[...]
2 - To say someone is trolling, you are not throwing out some internet buzzword nobody understands or can reconcile with its meaning - It's not like accusing someone of being "A brainwashed cryptofascist apologist", where people might have no idea what that is or means. To say someone is trolling is a shorthand for saying one very simple thing:

"I believe that you are insincere in this debate, and out to cause trouble by adopting a stance calculated to offend others".

(I'll give everyone exactly one guess to think of a member who does that ABSOLUTELY ALL THE DAMNED TIME.)

To try and put a ban on people taking that position is to completely doom ourselves to a forum where nobody can be accused of seeking to cause trouble. Where the only method of even having that position taken into account, is the report button, so that the mod team can assume all authority over whether the user fits the bill of "troll".

GB, you make many points and I can tell how passionate you are about this issue of the manner in which MB mods and the community handle members viewed by some or even a majority of people here as disruptive.

I have read your and others' posts in response to mine, but I want to focus on your idea that I feel is the best way to prevent rising escalation among members at MB when some feel another is trolling or breaking an MB rule: When members believe someone is trolling, rather than accuse that person in the thread, use the report button. The mods can then make the decision.

^ This is in line with our community rule: "If you feel that someone is in violation of the forum rules and you wish to report it please use the "report this" located below each post."

About my wishing mods to be "nice" while moderating:

Mods can be effective and act quickly while also being polite, as they often are. The brutality that you relished with RT isn't necessary for a site to function and in my mind is not desirable because many people don't want to participate in a community where brutality is used by those who have power.

I'm very thankful to the mods here whenever they politely and quickly handle problems. I don't always agree with their decisions, and so I'm also thankful that they consider the opinions of regular members, which they do even though the rules clearly state that "the staff reserve the right to take any actions we deem appropriate to ensure these forums are not disrupted or abused in any way, including removal of content and user bans."

About how to handle the situation when members feel someone is trolling:

I know you and others feel very passionately that sopsych is trolling. And yet I know with 100% certainty that he is not trolling: he is well-intentioned. However, his opinions about the quality of music posts are not held by many people here, except perhaps Duga.

The important point, I feel, is that people should be able to express opinions about subject matter, even when their opinions aren't popular, without risking a ban. For example, I believe that feeling fully satisfied with the music discussion here isn't or shouldn't be a requirement for being part of this community.

I understand how some members can get tired of feeling that an individual is often critical of discussions they value; when that happens, I recommend they use the ignore button so that people can more easily co-exist here on MB. I'd rather see many people here with a variety of controversial opinions rather than a few people who all agree.

Originally Posted by Burning Down

I think that members who feel the need to insult or do name calling really need to take a step back and learn some discipline. It's impossible for anyone here to predict when somebody is going to make an offensive remark in order to be able to prevent it from actually happening. If they do happen, they are swiftly dealt with as Urban stated. There is that gray area between complete censorship of negative opinions and freedom to express those opinions, and yes, this is what members tend to exploit, through baiting and instigation of drama starting with insulting remarks.

Again, it really comes down to self-discipline on the part of every member here.

Thanks for your reply, Burning Down. I agree with your wish to find a middle ground between complete censorship and allowing people at the site to express negative opinions.

My suggestion is for mods to tell members they need to follow the MB rule: "If you feel that someone is in violation of the forum rules and you wish to report it please use the "report this" located below each post."

^ I *think* this would cut down on name calling and abusive treatment among members. You might get a lot more posts reported, but at least then threads wouldn't end up with members bashing each other or, worse, ganging up on one member in post after post when they believe he has broken rules or they are of the opinion that the person is a jerk.

[Black Francis]

Originally Posted by djchameleon

I understand coming into this thread and wanting to comment about certain posts in it but this thread should really be more about the constructive ideas. It's fine to come in and say you agree or disagree with someone's idea but just to throw in a general statement like that isn't really what this thread is supposed to be about as dedicated in the OP.

i already gave my constructive ideas in this thread
i just don't understand how all the attention is always on the disagreements.. i mean, is that what it takes to get heard around here?
and it just keeps escalating untill ppl get banned or ppl start hating each other so yea.. my simple statement of wanting ppl to get along is a constructive idea

[GuitarBizarre]

Veg, your ideas have precisely nothing to do with the effective moderation of the forums, and everything to do with crying like a little baby when someone doesnt phrase their posts like they're trying to win a popularity contest.

I don't think you have any idea whatsoever of how to moderate people or discourse and youre focusing only on the things least likely to actually help anyone. All your thoughts are based around feeling and tact and discouraging anyone having to actually ****ing deal with a negative, impassioned or otherwise polemic statement.

It is my sincere belief that the only problems any of your suggestions solve, is that it mollycoddles people who have no business getting involved in a serious debate in the first place, by asking everyone to kowtow to the idea that a good debate is one where everyone talks to each other with all the respect and good will and utter lack of forcefulness of a Disney film singalong.

People do not, never have, never will, and should not work the way you think they should and accepting that is precisely why we have moderation in the first place. It is also why police forces don't waste their time pandering to wasters, stoners and criminals endlessly justifying their actions or making insincere apologies for being a little bit rough - they have a job to do, and doing it with carebear stares, hugs kisses and invites to birthday parties is not how that job will ever get done.

Now will you PLEASE shut up and/or accept that the mod teams demeanour or attitude has precisely fuck all to do with how good they are or can be at their job.

Oh, and how about you address my other points, like how I point out that your ideas just turn normal members into the bad guy while protecting trolls and allowing them to play victim.

[GuitarBizarre]

Oh, and to boot - it doesn't matter if sopsych is trolling or just a deluded, insane, arrogant misfit hellbent on attacking the mod team. He was a disruption, and clearly at the center of a massive ****storm that HE started. that's reason enough to remove him from that discussion and other similar discussions before we even consider whether it was his intent or not.

Its not against the rules to ban someone just because they're a gigantic dick that everyone hates. in fact, that's a good thing, and allows the mod team to make sure the community not only works but works well. there is a grey area regards whether someone is disruptive enough to actually be banned for it, but there should be no rule laywering around whether them believing what they say absolves them of responsibility for the ****storm it creates. it does not. The responsibility lies on the member with the controversial opinion to put it across without being a complete dickhead about it. If they can't do that then they have the option of not doing it, trying to convince people less aggressively, or being asked to leave. Or forced to.

it is absolutely none of the mods business to ensure that someone with a controversial opinion is allowed to espouse it and receive a favourable response, or even a polite one. Their job is to ensure that them espousing it doesn't start outright fights and that if it does, then the person or persons responsible for that fight are dealt with and the fight stopped.

Which is **** all to do with letting sopsych dig his own grave for 40 pages versus absolutely everyone else who cared to read, then trying to say "But he was only trying to help!" - well yeah, but, without wishing to invoke Godwins law, Hitler only wanted to help Germany. It doesn't excuse what he did to achieve that.

[Dr_Rez]

Originally Posted by GuitarBizarre

Veg, your ideas have precisely nothing to do with the effective moderation of the forums, and everything to do with crying like a little baby when someone doesnt phrase their posts like they're trying to win a popularity contest.

I don't think you have any idea whatsoever of how to moderate people or discourse and youre focusing only on the things least likely to actually help anyone. All your thoughts are based around feeling and tact and discouraging anyone having to actually ****ing deal with a negative, impassioned or otherwise polemic statement.

It is my sincere belief that the only problems any of your suggestions solve, is that it mollycoddles people who have no business getting involved in a serious debate in the first place, by asking everyone to kowtow to the idea that a good debate is one where everyone talks to each other with all the respect and good will and utter lack of forcefulness of a Disney film singalong.

People do not, never have, never will, and should not work the way you think they should and accepting that is precisely why we have moderation in the first place. It is also why police forces don't waste their time pandering to wasters, stoners and criminals endlessly justifying their actions or making insincere apologies for being a little bit rough - they have a job to do, and doing it with carebear stares, hugs kisses and invites to birthday parties is not how that job will ever get done.

Now will you PLEASE shut up and/or accept that the mod teams demeanour or attitude has precisely fuck all to do with how good they are or can be at their job.

Oh, and how about you address my other points, like how I point out that your ideas just turn normal members into the bad guy while protecting trolls and allowing them to play victim.

This. Seconded.

[djchameleon]

Originally Posted by Black Francis

i already gave my constructive ideas in this thread
i just don't understand how all the attention is always on the disagreements.. i mean, is that what it takes to get heard around here?
and it just keeps escalating untill ppl get banned or ppl start hating each other so yea.. my simple statement of wanting ppl to get along is a constructive idea

You know it doesn't work like that in the real world BF. There are people that will just forever not like each other for whatever reasons whether it be warranted or not. Just saying "let's all get along" is a pipe dream.

Originally Posted by VEGANGELICA

I know you and others feel very passionately that sopsych is trolling. And yet I know with 100% certainty that he is not trolling: he is well-intentioned. However, his opinions about the quality of music posts are not held by many people here, except perhaps Duga.

The important point, I feel, is that people should be able to express opinions about subject matter, even when their opinions aren't popular, without risking a ban. For example, I believe that feeling fully satisfied with the music discussion here isn't or shouldn't be a requirement for being part of this community.

I understand how some members can get tired of feeling that an individual is often critical of discussions they value; when that happens, I recommend they use the ignore button so that people can more easily co-exist here on MB. I'd rather see many people here with a variety of controversial opinions rather than a few people who all agree.

This is a serious question. Do you use the internet anywhere outside of MB? Post on any other forums or even read through comments on any other sites?
There is a line between having a negative opinion that people disagree with and taking said opinion and constantly repeating it while ignoring everyone else in the process and tooting your own horn.