We've got a major problem...

duga · 08-07-2013, 01:51 PM

This forum needs help. Badly.

Every new member that has something to contribute eventually stops showing up. There is nothing but drama. Some people like this...but I (along with many others) am not a dramatic person. I want to talk about music. Sure, I can go to the latest hipster blogs and find out what they think is good...but I came here because this site took things deeper. There were members here with a deep knowledge of music matched only by their passion for it. I would find 2 or 3 memorable albums I had never even heard of every time I logged on...minimum. Most of those members are gone.

The holdouts like myself and most of mod team along with those rare new members that for some reason are still around are stuck here wondering what to do. Wondering why this happened. This forum has turned into nothing but a drama filled cliquey bitchfest and frankly, it disgusts me. If I had just joined, I would have just left like all the other new members that take one look and turn the other way. But I'm invested. I remember how much I used to enjoy coming here. I would like to think there is something we can do.

This forum works best when there are equal parts members with a DEEP knowledge of whatever music they like best and inexperienced members ready to drink it up. The drama was there, sure, but drama fueled by passion for music is something I can tolerate. That dynamic is completely lost. This isn't just another cry for "waaah...this forum sucks now"...it has truly hit rock bottom. If the cliques continue NO ONE will want to join. So my question is...

How do we fix this? How do we attract those quality members without scaring them away?

And how do we get people who just like to stir **** up to shut the **** up?

GuitarBizarre · 08-07-2013, 02:30 PM

I think a bold and positive step has been taken, very, very recently in that regard.

That said - I think what we desperately, desperately need is some sort of hook to remind people who do come here only to frequent the lounge and the shoutbox, that there are good things to read in the other forums. I'm a prime offender - I spend almost all of my time here in the lounge or shoutbox, purely because I've become comfortable checking those places and leaving other stuff unread. Nothing drags me away from there as I just use the lounge and shoutbox to get people discussing music in plug.dj sessions, the rest of the forum for me is relatively untouched, even talk instruments, since Mr.Dave and RezZ were the only other regular posters there and have left it to itself for a long time.

That said, the shoutbox is definitely about to get a lot better, and that was a really good "hook" way back when, before it became the cliquefest you describe - it might simply be time to start talking more music in there, and less harry potter, gender politics, self-righteousness, mockery of the unaware and fetishes.

Trollheart · 08-07-2013, 02:30 PM

As in just about every case, recognising the problem is the first step. I personally see that I have contributed, in part, to various let's call them as you say dramas, and have concluded that some times the best option is the "ignore" button. Now I'm not saying that's always the thing to do and it's not the only option, but I've tried staying out of fights, ignoring (not with the button, just not responding to) people I don't get on with or who don't get on with me, but eventually after some effort have found the only way to address the problem was to hit the "Ignore".

Of course, you can't have everyone doing that otherwise nobody will be able to talk to anyone!

So how to proceed? Hmm, I don't know. Well, let's see, just throwing this out here, see who thinks what of it: how about, I don't know, acting like adults instead of children?

I'm serious. Much of the cliquey behaviour you're describing -- correctly --- here duga is down to the old playground "my mates against your mates" mentality, so that if one person gets slighted all their "gang" retaliate and suddenly there's almost a forum war going on. Then the original "offender" has his or her gang weigh in on their side, and off we go again.

People should be able to work out their differences peacefully and without recourse to stupid namecalling, one-liners, smileys, GIFs and memes. Sometimes all it takes is for one person to explain to the other that they took them up wrong, and as Elton said, sometimes sorry does seem to be the hardest word. Nobody will admit they were wrong, nobody will apologise. People go on and on exhibiting the same unacceptable behaviour, encouraging others to do the same, and the whole vicious circle turns.

This will sound a really stupid idea, but in the absence of any other ideas, what would anyone think of a sort of "grievances committee", maybe a thread where two people with a problem could put their case and members, either random or more likely some sort of, for want of another word, jury, could rule on it, then whatever was decided the two members would have to abide by, on pain of a ban, and maybe permaban if they kept ignoring the decision.

Something very simple: one member keeps calling the other gay. He/she doesn't mean it but the other one gets annoyed. Rather than this escalate the "committee" rules member 1 should not call member 2 gay. If member 1 does, he or she is banned. Yeah, I know, idiotic, but I can't think of anything else.

Really, people shoudl not need to be policed though. Simple human common courtesy should be a byword of this forum, and really everyone should treat people here as they would were they to meet them in real life.

Not that they will, but it's a good maxim, if only people would follow it.
Of course, another solution for an infraction of the decision of the committee could be a "group ignore". Have you ever heard of sending someone to Coventry? Basically everyone ignores them for a set time --- not long, say a day, maybe and perhaps they might get the idea?

Yeah, all bad ideas but who's coming up with anything better?

GuitarBizarre · 08-07-2013, 02:37 PM

I don't think an emphasis on moderation is needed. We have a great moderation policy that gives people so, SO many chances to not **** up already - if someone gets banned here they either damn well deserve it or they've been given so many chances to stop straddling that line, that patience has run thin - look at how long hermione lasted for, hhbh (despite the number of members, even of the mod team, who ****ing hate the guy), even dirty and boobs were given tons of chances (And in hhbh's case, he's still getting away with a ton of ****) and people to this day will defend many of them.

What breaks down a clique mentality isn't an application of authority - it's a necessity to make people friends with each other, not just mutual enemies with the mod team.

Paedantic Basterd · 08-07-2013, 02:40 PM

There are a number of people on both sides of this argument who aren't interested in the role they've played in a problem they've observed, and until we are open to examining our own contributions, or lack thereof to the current attitude of this forum, there will not be a positive change in activity.

Frankly, I don't want to talk about it or to try and solve it, because I don't believe people are interested in listening. More than anything change takes energy, acceptance, and patience, and I no longer feel I have these for this forum.

duga · 08-07-2013, 02:41 PM

I agree, GB.

My main goal with this thread is to bring to attention how a lot of us have felt recently and to let the members hash it out. Sadly, with this emphasis on cliquishness the mods have been made into our own clique and a lot of people have taken to making us the scapegoats. We mod just like we always have.

So I would prefer if we help the discussion along but for the most part stay out of it. I honestly want to hear some ideas from regulars.

And yes, even if you have a problem with the way we mod. Just don't bitch about deleted posts anymore...we do that out of necessity and everyone just needs to deal with it privately through PM. If I see one more complaint about that I am going to flip a ****.

duga · 08-07-2013, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedestrian

Frankly, I don't want to talk about it or to try and solve it, because I don't believe people are interested in listening. More than anything change takes energy, acceptance, and patience, and I no longer feel I have these for this forum.

And a lot of people have felt this way as well.

I'm almost there...but seriously, I used to really look forward to logging on. SOMETHING can be done, right?

Paedantic Basterd · 08-07-2013, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duga

I'm almost there...but seriously, I used to really look forward to logging on. SOMETHING can be done, right?

The last month and a half or so, my routine has consisted of the following. I return from work. I unlace my shoes. I look at my computer, and think to myself. Do I want to log on to MB? No, **** it, I don't need that. I refuse to go online just to be made angry. And then I pick up a novel and put my emotions and energy into that instead.

And no, I don't believe anything can be done, because I still see major players in this forum's current climate completely missing the role they've played in it--refusing to see it--and until they open up their perspectives and ask themselves what they have done and what they can do better, I don't even want to try.

**Janszoon** · 08-07-2013, 02:50 PM

I just think people who really care about MB as a place to discuss music need to take some kind of pledge to avoid posting in political or other drama-inciting types of threads, myself included. Once upon a time I used have that as a personal policy because why on earth would I want to have those kinds of discussions on a music forum. I'm not exactly sure when I got off track with that but I'd like to go back.

Paedantic Basterd · 08-07-2013, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

I just think people who really care about MB as a place to discuss music need to take some kind of pledge to avoid posting in political or other drama-inciting types of threads, myself included. Once upon a time I used have that as a personal policy because why on earth would I want to have those kinds of discussions on a music forum. I'm not exactly sure when I got off track with that but I'd like to go back.

Arguments are inevitable in discussion. The problem is how they are dealt with. This has not been done adequately for months. By anybody.

08-07-2013, 01:51 PM	#1 (permalink)
duga MB quadrant's JM Vincent Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 3,762	We've got a major problem... This forum needs help. Badly. Every new member that has something to contribute eventually stops showing up. There is nothing but drama. Some people like this...but I (along with many others) am not a dramatic person. I want to talk about music. Sure, I can go to the latest hipster blogs and find out what they think is good...but I came here because this site took things deeper. There were members here with a deep knowledge of music matched only by their passion for it. I would find 2 or 3 memorable albums I had never even heard of every time I logged on...minimum. Most of those members are gone. The holdouts like myself and most of mod team along with those rare new members that for some reason are still around are stuck here wondering what to do. Wondering why this happened. This forum has turned into nothing but a drama filled cliquey bitchfest and frankly, it disgusts me. If I had just joined, I would have just left like all the other new members that take one look and turn the other way. But I'm invested. I remember how much I used to enjoy coming here. I would like to think there is something we can do. This forum works best when there are equal parts members with a DEEP knowledge of whatever music they like best and inexperienced members ready to drink it up. The drama was there, sure, but drama fueled by passion for music is something I can tolerate. That dynamic is completely lost. This isn't just another cry for "waaah...this forum sucks now"...it has truly hit rock bottom. If the cliques continue NO ONE will want to join. So my question is... How do we fix this? How do we attract those quality members without scaring them away? And how do we get people who just like to stir ** up to shut the ** up? __________________ Confusion will be my epitaph...

08-07-2013, 02:30 PM	#3 (permalink)
Trollheart Born to be mild Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 404 Not Found Posts: 26,992	As in just about every case, recognising the problem is the first step. I personally see that I have contributed, in part, to various let's call them as you say dramas, and have concluded that some times the best option is the "ignore" button. Now I'm not saying that's always the thing to do and it's not the only option, but I've tried staying out of fights, ignoring (not with the button, just not responding to) people I don't get on with or who don't get on with me, but eventually after some effort have found the only way to address the problem was to hit the "Ignore". Of course, you can't have everyone doing that otherwise nobody will be able to talk to anyone! So how to proceed? Hmm, I don't know. Well, let's see, just throwing this out here, see who thinks what of it: how about, I don't know, acting like adults instead of children? I'm serious. Much of the cliquey behaviour you're describing -- correctly --- here duga is down to the old playground "my mates against your mates" mentality, so that if one person gets slighted all their "gang" retaliate and suddenly there's almost a forum war going on. Then the original "offender" has his or her gang weigh in on their side, and off we go again. People should be able to work out their differences peacefully and without recourse to stupid namecalling, one-liners, smileys, GIFs and memes. Sometimes all it takes is for one person to explain to the other that they took them up wrong, and as Elton said, sometimes sorry does seem to be the hardest word. Nobody will admit they were wrong, nobody will apologise. People go on and on exhibiting the same unacceptable behaviour, encouraging others to do the same, and the whole vicious circle turns. This will sound a really stupid idea, but in the absence of any other ideas, what would anyone think of a sort of "grievances committee", maybe a thread where two people with a problem could put their case and members, either random or more likely some sort of, for want of another word, jury, could rule on it, then whatever was decided the two members would have to abide by, on pain of a ban, and maybe permaban if they kept ignoring the decision. Something very simple: one member keeps calling the other gay. He/she doesn't mean it but the other one gets annoyed. Rather than this escalate the "committee" rules member 1 should not call member 2 gay. If member 1 does, he or she is banned. Yeah, I know, idiotic, but I can't think of anything else. Really, people shoudl not need to be policed though. Simple human common courtesy should be a byword of this forum, and really everyone should treat people here as they would were they to meet them in real life. Not that they will, but it's a good maxim, if only people would follow it. Of course, another solution for an infraction of the decision of the committee could be a "group ignore". Have you ever heard of sending someone to Coventry? Basically everyone ignores them for a set time --- not long, say a day, maybe and perhaps they might get the idea? Yeah, all bad ideas but who's coming up with anything better? __________________ Trollheart: Signature-free since April 2018

08-07-2013, 02:41 PM	#6 (permalink)
duga MB quadrant's JM Vincent Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 3,762	I agree, GB. My main goal with this thread is to bring to attention how a lot of us have felt recently and to let the members hash it out. Sadly, with this emphasis on cliquishness the mods have been made into our own clique and a lot of people have taken to making us the scapegoats. We mod just like we always have. So I would prefer if we help the discussion along but for the most part stay out of it. I honestly want to hear some ideas from regulars. And yes, even if you have a problem with the way we mod. Just don't bitch about deleted posts anymore...we do that out of necessity and everyone just needs to deal with it privately through PM. If I see one more complaint about that I am going to flip a ****. __________________ Confusion will be my epitaph...

08-07-2013, 02:50 PM	#9 (permalink)
Janszoon Mate, Spawn & Die Join Date: May 2007 Location: The Rapping Community Posts: 24,593	I just think people who really care about MB as a place to discuss music need to take some kind of pledge to avoid posting in political or other drama-inciting types of threads, myself included. Once upon a time I used have that as a personal policy because why on earth would I want to have those kinds of discussions on a music forum. I'm not exactly sure when I got off track with that but I'd like to go back. __________________ A Night in the Life of the Invisible Man Time & Place 25 Albums You Should Hear Before the Moon Crashes into the Earth and We All Die last.fm

08-07-2013, 02:40 PM	#5 (permalink)
Paedantic Basterd Music Addict Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 5,184	There are a number of people on both sides of this argument who aren't interested in the role they've played in a problem they've observed, and until we are open to examining our own contributions, or lack thereof to the current attitude of this forum, there will not be a positive change in activity. Frankly, I don't want to talk about it or to try and solve it, because I don't believe people are interested in listening. More than anything change takes energy, acceptance, and patience, and I no longer feel I have these for this forum.