Sure, I could've gone to the thread but I asked you directly. It was more personal and in the flow of us having a discussion so I thought I would ask and you never answered.

Sorry dood.

No biggie. Just proving a point :)

People don't report so much spam that anything gets clogged up (in my opinion), but the most obvious spam usually gets noticed without the help of members and so reporting it is somewhat redundant. I consider threads made in order to promote a product or service as spam which is obvious to the point where no report is needed.

If spam is hidden in a thread, f.ex my album review index, then it is harder to find and I think it should be reported.

I don't feel expected to talk about my life, but the conversations about non-music stuff always feel more lively.

I've posted a bunch of reviews and tried to start discussion, and it's hard for me to tell if people are just not interested, I'm an uninspiring writer, or they are just more excited about the Lounge. All I know is I get little feedback. I'm not saying this because I'm starving for attention. I'm saying this because on the biggest, most popular music forum on the internet, one would think a review of an artist that's never been discussed would attract at least a few comments. I don't know. Like I said, this could be purely about my tastes and writing style. So it's not a big deal. I just wanted to sympathize a bit with Rostasi on that.

I've already posted about this sentiment in the thread (see pages 4-7), and I only posted again to reinforce Rostasi's point and respond to him, since everyone else passed his comment by.

The spam I used to report was usually just when mods weren't around to take care of it and hidden ones like you mentioned.

Well, I don't understand it, unless it's simply a tendency for people to label loudly stated unpopular opinions as trolling. I have been accused of that a few times elsewhere, and I have seen it happen to others, mostly to individuals who start threads. 'Funny' thing is that, in this case, my opinion isn't unpopular - the subject was brought up by Pedestrian or actually by a mod (Duga) who probably thinks I'm a trouble-maker, and several other members have commented negatively about the atmosphere. And I will state here, as I did maybe last year, that mods shouldn't egg things on against anyone, for moderators are supposed to appear impartial. Also, in this case, I don't see the opinion as offensive - unfriendly atmosphere doesn't mean members are unusually animal-like or rotten (though I suppose a few are).

You need have no worries on that score; I can assure you you're an incredibly talented writer. Sometimes, most times in fact, people just don't comment. I'm guilty of it too, though if I see something I want to comment on I will. My journal has over 100,000 views --- the most on MB ever, and I say that as a pure fact not a boast --- and yet you could count the comments on the fingers of the hand of one Arcturian Mega-Plasmoid --- probably less than a hundred. Over a period of four years that's not much. But I know people appreciate my writing as I hear it elsewhere. You shouldn't lose heart: just because people aren't commenting doesn't mean they're not reading, though I know it's hard to get a sense of how your writing is being received without comments.

Your off-site blog is amazing, truly. You have real talent.

I know I'm guilty of not commenting on a lot of things I read here. That's not to say they aren't impressive though when the fact is they really are (Miss PT too!) For me, and I can of course only account for me is that my problem is when I'm here, it's usually while I'm at work, and when I start to write something I get lost in the writing and next thing you know, I've lost a deadline. Anyone reading this that has ever written a review, a journal, or whatever, please know that it DOES get read and just because noone posts a comment doesn't mean it's poorly done. I see a boat load of talent on here.

Hey guys, thanks for the encouragement. TH, you are also a talented writer, and I've seen you admit many times that you know your journals don't get as many comments as you'd like. I find your perseverance admirable! Keep on keepin' on!

Also, I think you and Plank's comments really respond to the point duga was originally making. I'm happy to go on providing content for MB without any validation, and I think others are, too. Yet others are here to read avidly and contribute only sometimes. duga, people get worked up about the little things on MB and in real life, and just because the bad sometimes drowns out the good content, it doesn't mean that we've got a major problem. It simply means that members' priorities are different.

If newbs don't stick around, it's not because they see the drama, get involved in it, and feel unwelcome... I bet it's because they didn't find a niche. And...I think that's okay.

It might just be timing, or it could be that people aren't interested in the lounge or aren't sure what to say! I highly doubt it's anything against you! Before we met in this thread and a few others, I'd only heard ABOUT you, and everything I heard was complimenting you as a member here!

Don't be afraid or saddened when you don't get much feedback, it happens to all of us. I've talked a lot in here about discussions I've personally tried to start that have simply fizzled out, while others such as my "Criticizing Music Tastes" thread have really gotten some great discussion and opinions from members. It's simply timing, laziness, and a bunch of other factors that definitely don't have anything to do with your character!

Awww, thanks Arya. :3 Your whole comment was very sweet. Like I said, I'm not worried, but other people (newbs) might have a hard time finding their "niche." I'm happy to contribute!

I disagree. Sometimes it is related to the drama. I think new members who start threads (outside the Introductions section) are particularly likely to get mad and leave (I didn't get pissed about MB until I made some threads). Because this is duga's thread and he is a mod, I think he should do a statistical investigation of that, looking at 40 non-spamming members who joined in 2013 and tried to start music discussion. Not that all of those members were worth keeping around, but certainly proactive new members is what the site needs.

I agree. I won't mentioned any names but I befriended a few new members in the shut box who were new we talked a bit (you know before they left the site) and it wasn't because of drama it was for their own personal reasons why they left. Even one of our staple members (i.e. GuitarBizarre) was frustrated at one point and felt like leaving (though I don't know for sure if it was because of the drama). I practically begged him not to leave.

Yes, I agree I would also like to see duga do some statistical analyses at the 40 non-spamming members of 2013 who tried to start music discussion to find out just what the heck happened.


If new members have some skin issues I don't think you should be bringing it up that they use Proactive.

I feel that's a good idea to delete posts when people criticize the person rather than the issue under debate.

I agree with your suggestion about moderators deleting name-calling and avoiding participating in drama.

I like your idea of lounge posts not showing up when one clicks on 'New Posts' since this would focus attention on the music contributions that many people want to encourage here.

I agree with you that we should not label or debate openly whether other members are trolls. Debating openly whether a member is a troll is hurtful if she isn't trolling, and simply encourages her if trolling is her objective.

I don't know if you read the entire thread or not but that's a technical limitation that might not be able to have happen.

Plus screw you music lovers, I want to see new posts from lounge posts :P

It's like you are treating members like sheep and they need to be herding over to the music section of the site so they can't see a lounge post because god forbid they don't feel like talking about music for one day or might not have something to say at this point in time and want to goof off a little bit.

Technical implausibility aside, what's so hard about clicking on the Lounge instead of new posts?? I really don't get why it would be so detrimental to the "fun" side of the forum. :)

it's not detrimental but the point I was getting at is that it's perfectly fine the way it is.

What's so hard about clicking on the specific music forum that you want to post in if you want to have a discussion about music?

I don't see the point of implementing software for something that seem to me to be totally pointless,annoying & intrusive.

Remember this is about creating ideas for people to be more active in the music forums and trying to get people to stop getting into silly arguments & winding people up just to get a reaction.

It's not about stopping people from posting in the Lounge.

sopsych, you are now required to say something positive about the site. We get you have complaints and while you may have some good ideas, they are masked by the torrential outpour of just negativity.

Oh man! Is it ironic that since that thread was created all the conversation has moved there? Thankfully it's now been closed, so let me draw your attention to this
http://www.musicbanter.com/announcem...-american.html

C'mon guys, show the forum some love! Let's get out the acoustic guitars and sing kumbeye-ah. Time to get some peace and understanding back, and give some kudos to those who are trying to make this a better place...

I sometimes get the feeling that some of the members here, when they read a post, just try their best to find something offensive in that post or some angle from which they can approach its contents so that it becomes offensive and they can get angry. In other words, a lot of members here will start trolling, generate drama and escalate hostility over things I personally think of as rather trivial.

I'm not a naturally passionate or spontaneous sort of person and it takes a while for me to get mad and maybe I'm the one acting strange, but .. If you want a quiet environment and someone's talking loud, it doesn't really help to start screaming back. Likewise, if you want a friendlier environment and someone comes along with an opinion you don't like, acting angry and hostile is obviously not going to help towards that goal.

We can't control people's thoughts on the forum so there are going to be differing opinions. And, except in the most extreme cases, it's not really the opinions themselves which generate the problems, but the way we communicate them.

I still can't believe an actual thread was made to single out/target this sopsych, whoever he/she is and make an actual space for members to criticise/attack them! (As annoying as they may be... this is getting a bit ridiculous).

I think everyone just needs to calm down and enjoy the forum. Like tore said, people take offense way too easily and some members seem to almost find any excuse to reply to a post with hostility and defense.

Can everyone put their differences aside and move on and be happy? :( And understand that while attacking people personally can be hurtful, a little bit of debate within discussion is perfectly normal and healthy! I don't really know what the solution is to achieve this, but it seems to have been discussed to a point of no return, so let's just all chill.

Not sure if you meant this as a joke or not, but just to be clear, I created that thread to remove a derail from this one. The purpose wasn't to target him, it was to allow him to continue discussing what he wanted to discuss while preventing this thread from continuing to be derailed. If we left the derail in this thread, people would complain about the mods not doing anything (and in fact I personally had received that exact complaint). If we started deleting posts, people would complain about that. I chose an option that I thought was more of a compromise, but I guess that turns out to be horribly outrageous to people too.

That's fair enough Janszoon, I understand the position you were put in and why you moved the thread. It was not really attack at the mods for moving the discussion to a new thread, but rather, the fact that the original discussion had gotten to that point, where a whole new thread had to be created to continue the drama due to various members posts and discussion turns. I just think it's sad that people feed off and create so much drama and constantly respond to posts with such hostility and defense (which ultimately ended up targeting a member of the forum and another pointless, closed thread).

Once again, it was a derail, not "a whole new thread". It was simply moving a group of posts from this thread rather than deleting them. It was an attempt to remove drama from this thread, but here we are discussing said drama anyway. So fuck it. I give up.

Honestly they could have banned the person not just removed part of the thread.

If it isn't possible for moderators to remove lounge posts from the "New Posts," then I agree the idea couldn't be implemented even if desired.

However, I view Loathsome Pete's idea of focusing attention on the music section not as treating members like sheep, but as one method of directing the spotlight onto positive music discussion and away from the lounge threads that usually seem to inspire more of the personal attacks that occur among members.

As I've seen in this thread, personal attacks (such as on sopsych) create a negative atmosphere that may make people feel less likely to want to participate in the community. The response to sopsych certainly wouldn't encourage *him* to post more about music, but I hope he continues. I admire his passion and knowledge about '80s pop rock.

In my view, our member sopsych simply agreed with the original moderator's opinion that MB is in trouble due to the nasty drama:

^ How do we attract members who like to discuss music deeply and who don't bash people for their views?

I recommend that we...

* don't attack members by calling them trolls;
* don't tell members to leave the site when they dislike some of the dynamics here;
* don't misrepresent members such as sopsych by saying they contribute nothing, when they do;
* don't encourage mods to ban someone;
* don't make threads that appear to target one individual (as in this case sopsych) as if he were the only one here to complain about the forum.

* DO disagree with people's viewpoints when you disagree with them;
* DO stand up politely for your fellow members;
* DO encourage people to share their opinions about topics, even if you disagree with their opinion;
* DO report personal insults and attacks;
* DO enjoy music discussion with members and appreciate their contributions.


I feel that sopsych did not derail the thread from the initial topic. In fact, he was staying on topic by pointing out, like moderator Duga did, that the negative atmosphere (meanness, nastiness, jumping on posters with personal attacks) creates a less welcoming environment such that not as many people may want to share deeply and openly about music here.

I feel the way this thread evolved is ironically a perfect example of the negative climate that sopsych has wanted to change and that duga originally pointed out was a problem here.

On a positive note, people are sharing their strong opinions very openly, and no one died. :)

This is hilarious. Thank you. You are a brilliant satirist.

such a trap but I will respond to it anyways because the other side of the coin is being misrepresented.

Why do you two feel like you are allowed to tell others how they should feel and what they should or shouldn't be offended by just because you aren't offended by something?

I don't think the point is that we should control what we feel so much as we should control how we respond to it.

hmm okay.

I do think it's fine to let someone know that you were offended by something they said but as long as you don't attack the person for offending you in the process then it's fine.

What normally ends up happening is the person that did the offendening turns it into a "what's the big deal" type of argument and it snowballs from there.

Granted, I haven't set such a good example as of late, but I do try to drop out of a conversation and stop being involved the moment I feel agitated by it. There's no way to say it without sounding like a preacher, but I think if more of us decided to drop heated-arguments, it'd be a more comfortable place for everyone.

I think some drama happens because the music discussion isn't exciting enough, with there literally not enough good threads to divert time and attention from fight-filled threads. (I certainly don't excel at rising above drama and am not the ideal person to be arguing Duga's case.) I also think that VEGANGELICA made a good list of suggestions (and I appreciate the music compliment). My additions would be discouragement of sarcastic and rude replies and outright intolerance of that as done with pictures. I genuinely believe in training - maybe I'm trainable myself, baaah - and I think things would improve gradually.

That said, there are two major questions:
Are moderators willing to change their own behavior as pertains to drama? (If not, they should just admit it and complain less about having to handle the reactions or, yeah, stop dealing with it altogether.)
Do many people believe there is too much drama on this site? Someone should do a poll - but it darn well won't be this whipping boy.

Right now there's an impasse - avoiding the issue won't help, and it probably can't be won by fighting.

I don't think this strategy is a revelation in terms of human behavior. The problem isn't that people don't know the best way to approach a situation, it's that we're emotional and impulsive, the lot of us. Suggesting that we all flip a switch and decide to act upon our better judgement is probably less reasonable in realistic terms.
If "peace" (in so many words) was an effective motivation, we'd never have gotten to this point to begin with.

It seems to me that people truly believe they're responding appropriately in dramatic situations (though observers might disagree), and that kind of thinking can't be reasoned with. I'm not really going anywhere with this point, I'm just disheartened by every angle of discussion and quietly crying about it.

Dude. Stop.

Not at all, I just think it sucks that people are upset and angered so easily. For their own sake, I think they would benefit from not taking some posts as seriously as they do to save the drama. I'm not one for telling them how to feel, but more letting them know that it's doubtful that any members here mean to attack anyone so they don't need to react so defensively and get so offended/upset at various "issues" so to speak. More so reassuring them that the members here are not malicious and attacking of anyone so there is no need to get worked up!

I didn't really want to get involved but I guess I have now, just goes to show that people take things way too seriously and react angrily when they respond to things with comments like "I give up, **** it" (Sorry Janszoon, I didn't mean to offend you in any way at all but obviously my post had you react in this manner :( The intentions of my post were not malicious or attacking in any way, in fact quite the opposite, yet it still prompts people to respond so defensively which makes me sad.)

I just hate that people are not happy with the situation and react so angrily/negatively/defensively to posts that shouldn't really be taken as offensive in any way. I'll just leave now, I hate drama! :)

Here's the thing about being a mod: when you are one you don't get the privilege of just ignoring forum drama. It's actually part of your responsibilities to respond to it in some way if it's getting out of hand. So you can imagine the frustration that comes with the reality that, when you try to deal with it in one way or another, no matter what you do, someone is going to be on your case about it. It's absolutely the shittiest part of being a mod. And even shittier still is when someone you like and respect jumps on you about a decision you've made to try and keep the peace. That's the point where you want to just throw up your hands and say, "Fuck it. Why the hell am I volunteering for this?"