I was making an observation, which you obviously don't agree with based on this response.

I'm not against bringing in new moderators. However, a complete overhaul of the team just for the sole reason that new moderators might be better at curbing bad behaviour and making the forum a better place is just a band aid fix. In the long run, nothing will get solved if members don't get involved in implementing changes as well. This is a community where everyone makes it what it is by participating. It's not an oppressive dictatorship.

As for the admins, well they are MIA as far as this site is concerned. We have to fend for ourselves here, unfortunately. Yac is basically our liaison with them, and he has a little more power than we do, but is not able to modify the technical aspects of the website. We just have to cope with this fact.

Now you sound like HAL2000.

Sopsych, thank you for your confidence. Unfortunately, as others have mentioned, there is a constraint on what moderators can do here which is a big part of why I stepped down from moderating here. For me, I found the more energy I put into MB, the more often I met that wall Urban mentioned and the more disillusioned I got. I feel like the more work you put into the site, the less it gives back compared to the work you do here. Feelings like those expressed by Pedestrian about not wanting to spend time here is something I've felt earlier, but now that I have a more casual relationship with the site, I find I am less frustrated with it.

But I partly agree with what you write, I think, although I have not read all your posts. I remember one moderator doing something here with profound effect on the community and the social dynamics here and that was Right Track. RT got fed up with some of the site's trolly members and largely took matters into his own hands and banned them. I may remember it wrong, but I don't think he asked any of us whether or not it was the right thing to do. He saw what the site needed and just did it. On one hand, it wasn't very democratic - he acted on his own and many members here wouldn't want those bans. On the other hand, I think it did improve things here drastically and, despite the way he did it, I think all us mods respected what he did.

I am not the sort of moderator RT was. I would've done what he did with a more democratic approach and chances are I never would've accomplished what he did so simply. MB being what it is, perhaps the nice, considerate approach where everyone has a say doesn't work in creating the sort of environment most of us want.

On a new site, I think the considerate, democratic approach could work better. Because then we would have more ways of promoting the environment we want, leaving it less dependent on moderation.

Is that HAL 9000's great-grandfather? :rofl: Sorry, but I couldn't resist man!

As for "better and smarter to agree with me", does this not sound like a certain Slipnot-obssessed member a little while back? How can it be smarter to agree with someone who seems to be the only one advocating something and who will NOT listen to REPEATED explanations as to why the things he wants to do are not possible? Surely it would, then, on the law of averages, be better and smarter NOT to agree with him?

Musicbanter: The Internets leader in having posters attempt to reason with trolls.

I wasn't trying to sound like Hal 2001. That movie probably is the worst alleged "masterpiece" I've ever seen. I am right about that too.

Anyway, tore now seems to somewhat agree with my main point. But where are potential moderators? If tore, Pedestrian, etc. don't want to do that, can they please at least name or privately seek out reform-minded candidates? After that would be the hard part about making room for them as moderators.

I fully believe that if the community becomes less harsh, people like me will step up with more music-related contributions.

One last question in this post: has moderating posts ever been tried as a way of "training" people to not fight with each other?

who the fuck said we want someone like you to be more involved in any facet of MB?

I think the hostility towards Sopsych and how it's now manifesting in this thread is more indicative of or part of the problem than Sopsych himself is. Can't we discuss this without petty bickering and trolly posts?

no!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think people have done exactly that for most of this thread actually. It's just the past few pages that have gotten a little off track.

So you think it is ok for Sopych to talk about MB members they should be trained like animals? You train puppies, you don't "train" humans. Yeah I know there is the instance of "on the job training" but I guess if it isn't work related and just the way it was used here it could be seen a subtle insult, like members here have to be "trained" like puppies, like the mods here are to be like dog trainers and give out treats and a pat on the head for good behaviour or swatting members with a rolled up news paper for bad behaviour. I think that's wrong, we're not puppies.

I think anticipation's bark is worse than his bite, he's harmless like a puppy. Tore if you just translate what anticipation said into a more kinder words, what he said it kinda makes sense. imo Sopsych telling people on how to run the forum is kinda like the tail wagging the dog.

Amen. I wish Pedestrian, Trollheart, and others would reiterate their points from a few days ago, instead of letting it seem like it's just whipping-boy me who wants things to change.

Edit: "train" was in quotes to be somewhat facetious, although I do believe that forum atmospheres do partly condition members' behavior and that moderators theoretically could deliberately condition troublesome members' behavior. It's part of my idealistic hope that nobody gets banned and instead everyone can enjoy the forum and not hate anybody. (No, I didn't just get body-snatched.)

Another question: is it possible to moderate entire threads? I've never heard of that on any forum, but it's a nice feature to fantasize about.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean here. Can you please elaborate? The posts in Editor's Pick and Member's Journal all have to be approved by us (so if you post there you'll see a message saying it will have to be approved by a moderator). But I'm not sure if that's what you mean.

As for me, I'm not sure what points you're referring to, but unlike you I'm getting off my arse and doing something about it. I've started two new music-related threads this week and as usual I update people on what's going on in the journal section. So I'm doing what I can. Could probably do more. But it's one hundred percent more than what you're doing.

A wise woman once said: "it's easy to criticise, Homer!" (To which the response was, "Fun, too!")

How many threads have you started, huh? I don't mean to be aggressive but you keep whining about how people won't change and yet you're doing nothing yourself to bring about that change. What are all these wonderful threads you tell us you'd make if the forum were run the way you want it to be? Lord almighty! :rolleyes: It's so easy to bitch from the sidelines: get in the game, man!

Either that or stop the incessant complaining.

Points reiterated enough for ya?

I have never paid attention to those sections. Yes, that is what I mean. Is it possible to turn moderation on for an existing thread in another section?

As for behavioral change, if I start threads again now, 1) I'll be ticked off at reactions and 2) that lessens incentive for moderators and other members to rein in the nastiness.

Stop feeding the troll.

This raises one of the big questions from the OP actually:

Is the best solution for everybody to try and collectively ignore them? Or should there be stricter enforcement of MB's anti-trolling rule? Or something else maybe?

It's not like he's trolling by being offensive, he's just being annoying. I think ignoring is the best in this case.

That seems reasonable to me. What happens when not everybody ignores them though? Should mods start deleting the trolling posts or the responses or both? Or should the conversation be left to take its natural course, even if it leads to more of the kind of drama everybody hates?

I dislike false accusations of trolling. I didn't come here to be abused. This is supposed to be a site for good music discussion, but because it isn't someone other than me created this thread. Don't blame me for this site's problems.

As of today, I've been here a year.

I think the supreme difficulty for new members is that they may think
that they're expected to immediately begin divulging all kinds of stuff
about themselves before they're even acknowledged as simply a music-lover.
I've watched in the last year as new members (ones that aren't promoting themselves)
have become vilified and/or ignored. Some leave...some "join in the conversation" and
are "accepted," but "joining" usually means that you're expected
to go on a lot about things that have little or nothing to do with music.
I have no interest in talking about what goes in or out of various orifices,
what I do for a living, if or what I watch on TV, who I think is great and
grand on the forum, etc. If I did have these interests, they would maybe
come up later - maybe far later - after I've established a musical connection
with the folks here. I'm wondering how many others are only lurking
(or leaving altogether) because they see what happens to those who dive
right into the music talk and get very little or no response to dozens of
music posts while possibly getting all kinds of attention if they'd only,
for example, start flashing their Greta Garbos for the member picture gallery.

There's a second thing that I'm concerned about:

My first post here was a fun exchange with The Batlord.
I loved it because it was a fun, creative swap of sheer silliness
that was a play on a song title. "Great," I thought, "a fun place
about music with people who aren't so serious about themselves!"
Little did I know then that this was an exception. The level of absolute
SERIOUSNESS - I mean down and dirty, name-calling, overt
"I'm god-like and you should follow me" (and sometimes the undeserved fawning
"you should follow him in his greatness") "I don't like this, so get rid of it for everyone"
"it's the Mods fault" "get off my lawn"-level animosity is absolutely extraordinary.
It's almost as if a number of you jumped from puberty to walking with a frame.
It speaks volumes that even in this very thread about how to make this board
more inviting, a guy's perfectly worded first post (before you discovered his
previous name) was shot down because he had "nothing invested in this place."
That person could've been lurking for days. I'm sure if the "join date" was even
months earlier, he would've received the same response. If I were a lurker here for
any amount of time and saw that, you can bet I'd keep my trap shut and just move on.

I can't speak of all of the forums online, but for nearly 20 years and posts
numbering in the 5 figures, I've been on music forums where there's an
easiness, kindness and general goodwill towards members new and old -
where they don't have the feeling that they have to write a dissertation
on musicians and/or albums in order to not be "lazy" (an accusatory word
used here by people who apparently don't like asking questions...or simply observing -
thereby placing the onus on others). After a year here, if I were making a suggestion,
it would be to keep it simple without being simple-minded by not having
divisions of divisions of divisions and try to resist having so many rules
that have to be adhered to before people get a fair shake. Also, have music as
the focus, but don't get so uptight about how people have to present their ideas.
It's all workable and potentially delectable if you just politely ask.
As was wisely said here recently,

"If you want to have a discussion, have a discussion," that's all.

Rod

Good stuff there, including many points I hadn't thought of. Although if part of that refers to me, I want to clarify that I'm not blaming everything on the mods or even much on most of the mods.

I'd move on myself if I knew of a site that's more active than this with a decent atmosphere and discussion about many different genres of music.

I feel like this thread is just past the point of being helpful anymore. He's mad he's being called a troll but instead of trying to add to the help, he's blaming everyone else.

I think in cases where people are resorting to name-calling, there should be moderation. But in this case, the conversation honestly seems harmless. Do you think? It's your call tho. :D

I actually just meant the question in general sense. I'm curious what people think is the best way to deal with trolling.

Oh I know you weren't asking me specifically. I just didn't want to sound like I thought I had the only valid opinion lol.

I was asking you (and also anyone else who wants to respond of course). I'm saying the question wasn't about a specific troll, just about how we should respond to trolling in general.

aren't you pretty heavy handed with trolling in general? isn't it part of the rules of the site?

It's good that you treat trolling that way especially when other people aren't realizing what's going on and continues to feed the troll.

I used to post on this one site that was so strict about trolling that you couldn't even bring up that the other person was a troll out loud. you had to send a message to a mod about the trollish behavior. If you mentioned the word troll in a post then you'd get a slap on the wrist as well as the troll. Well the troll would be banned but you'd be infracted. I'm not saying we have to be that strict about it but I feel like you guys let sop get away with way too much in this thread but just a personal opinion.

I know for a fact I'm considered a troll, and I believe that was a swipe at me and perhaps intended to scare me. But I'm not a troll. If tore had said those things instead of me, it would have gone over fine. Trolling isn't much of a problem on this site, from what I've seen. (Most trolls would want a larger audience.)

How about people actually comment on rostasi's post? I guess I'm ever the optimist that many people will realize the disease before it kills this place.

So do you feel the response to trolling should be, from members in general and also from mods?

Yes, if members aren't able to avoid the trolling then mod intervention is necessary. Use your discretion like you do with all other matters.

I don't think Sopsych is a troll. He argues points that may be seen as provocative, but he seemingly does so from the point of view that doing so is reasonable. And so I assume that it is possible to influence his opinions by using reasonable arguments.

In other words, I don't think his opinion is one he speaks simply to irritate and cause aggravation.

He never wrote that we should be trained like animals and so you're misinterpreting his post. I think your attitude in general shows a willingness to be offended. I believe you want to interpret his post in the worst way possible, consciously or perhaps unconsciously, because that gives you a right to act defensively, which again excuses rudeness and rash behaviour. And calling Sopsych a troll is a simple way of attacking his credibility.

In this country, both these methods would be considered a "hersketeknikk", literally translated to ruling technique, which are things you say and do manipulatively in a social situation simply in order to get the upper hand. I see the hersketeknikk, but I don't see the compelling, reasonable argument explaining why Sopsych is a troll.

edit :

Delete trolly posts and explain why they were deleted in a PM. Possibly a post in the thread announcing that posts have been deleted and why can be a good idea.

I know how hard this is ;) The "best" trolls learn to troll so subtly that it is hard to say, without a doubt, that they are trolling. (This could apply to Sopsych, but I personally don't think so.) In those cases, moderators often end up doing nothing, I believe, which is understandable because usually, no clear rule has been broken and moderating based on cases which walk just on the right side of a fine line will cause complaints from members of the community.

However, I think it is important that moderators recognize this sort of near-trolling and act on that too, if only by sending a PM to the ones doing it and asking them to change their behaviour.

A culture of trolling or near trolling perpetuates more of the same. By changing such a culture, you'd make the job easier for yourself in the future.

edit 2 :

Members should report more and so some increased focus on that forum function would be good. In the past, members have been asked to not report spam, which in turn may have discouraged reporting altogether, but reporting is an excellent way for moderators to get to know not only where the line is being crossed, but also what community members find offensive.

Of course you don't see his troll-ish behavior because he has been praising you the whole time.

If you pay attention to the people responding to him you'll understand why other people are calling him a troll. It's way past the point of just having an unpopular opinion.



He didn't say we should be trained like animals but he goes on to confirm later after Neo said that , that yes we basically should.

Finally, you said something I agree with.
Yeah, I've been discouraged from reporting all together. I used to get made fun of by the mods for reporting but I think it was spam at the time. There were complaints about reports filling up something on their end idk what the reasoning is but after I heard that. I stopped reporting.

I feel exactly the same way about MB, Rod. It's hard to get excited about discussing music here, when few really seem to care when you do it.

this probably isn't a good time for this little off topic comment but I asked you for some gypsy music recs a couple of times and you've ignored me :(

i more replying to rosti or whoever they are but my point is that this is a music community. and often in any community whether its online or real life, some level of personal info is shared and that's part of what makes something a community. and of course its everyones choice what they are willin to share


i just think in general here there are just different perspectives and thats fine. like i said i come here to bull**** about stuff and check out some music. im always in the plug the last few weeks. its like a group of friends with musical undertones. but i realize ppl come here for diff things so im not hatin on anyone

best suggestions for what the consensus wants

-dont have new posts show lounge stuff
-keep promoting using plug cause its cool and fun and easy to do
-ban herm forever lmao

I like to think I'm not that shallow! But whatever, I feel like I've contributed enough to the discussion on whether or not Sopsych is a troll. I consider it off-topic.

In my time as a mod, there weren't that many reports - certainly not enough to make me consider them a nuisance. In my opinion, reports do make the job a lot easier.

So, I like reports and think reporting should be encouraged.

I hope I'm not calling out the wrong person but I believe it was Burning Down that told me about how reporting spam can be somewhat of an issue with clogging up the console or w/e it is that you mods look through.

Well I'd rather that the report button be used for bad behavior rather than reporting obvious spam. You've never done this but other people have. If the spam is older than, let's say, 24 hours report away. But we usually see the spam pretty quickly.

I encourage people to report bad behavior or insults, etc. I don't think I said that to you but I do remember talking about reporting spam.

Yes, it's completely a terrible time. I'm reporting you for bad behavior! And didn't you see this thread?

I'm not sure I understand. Do you mean you're expected to talk all about your life and not music? And you only feel accepted if you participate in various lounge topics?

I do mean to find out, because it's important how new members feel. And as new members, what you guys say should be listened to in this thread. Especially since your welcoming is such a big topic.