The point I was trying to make is that not everyone can do that. It's not an easy thing to do and they shouldn't have to be forced to do it or made to feel like they are lesser for not being able to do it.

I haven't read through this entire thread, only about half of it, so forgive me if I'm slightly off pace. It's a lot to take in.

I'd have to go all the way back to the first couple of pages and Pedestrians posts to find one I completely, 100% agree with.

The way I see it is this:

The Lounge and the supposed problems it creates. There are even people here saying that people shouldn't post in The Lounge so much. What gives anyone the right to say that, when it is there to be used? It's quite simple really, if you don't want to read whats being posted in The Lounge, just don't use it. It should be policed, it will create more provocative discussion than the music forums by the very nature of it, but nobody is forcing you to use it. The way I see it is that the only people who do have to visit it and read it are the mods, because they need to police it. I have and I'm sure I will find something there to annoy me, but as a regular member it's so much easier to deal with the minority of posts in there that grind my gears - I just click out of that thread and move on to another one.

I don't think theres a question and answer system to fix anything here. I don't think it's a case of anyone going "Ok, this is what I don't like about MB - fix it" and closing down sub-forums etc to achieve a better, more positive, healthier forum. I don't think we can do that. I think to even attempt to achieve that (and who knows, maybe it just isnt possible) what would be required is a complete overhaul - and not in content, but in attitude.

I don't think we are a very welcoming forum. I think some new members will feel welcomed which is great, that means they got through. I'd bet that more don't get through, cause either they directly have an interaction with someone that puts them off, or they observe what happens here and decide they don't like it. Or they just don't think theres much of anything happening here at all and that we aren't a healthy enough forum to warrant their time.

To change that I think there are many members who need to recognise their part within that. Who need to recognise that the attitude they take onto the forums could be better, they could be more tolerant, they could treat people with more respect, and they make people feel more welcome. Posting in intro threads isn't enough (but certainly shouldn't be discouraged!) but a unanimous effort, I feel, would need to be made to start to take steps in the right direction to making this forum look a much more welcoming, warm, healthy place to any user who signs up with even a slight consideration given to staying here. If that were achievable, you may just find the forum would become more prosperous, because it would be much more enjoyable to be here rather than feel like so much of a chore at times.

For example this week has felt a huge chore for me, and so I haven't been here much. Only this morning did I remember that DJ has sent his album for Mystery Album Club out - a thread that, if people make use it, can only help to create music discussion and bring the community together in an activity to do together - and I've forgotten all about it. Out of sight, out of mind.

Both recognising where their attitude could improve and attempting to improve it, is applicable to everyone. Regular users and moderators. After all, the way I see it, the way in which a forum is moderated does effect the overall attitude and tone of the forum.

I'm not saying we should all be kissy face with each other and false, plastic versions of our true selves but I tend to try to think of that new visitor to the site who takes a look around, consider what they might just see, depending on what threads they click into, and am never surprised if that person doesn't come back.

Okay, the thing I don't understand about the posts of some people in here is how can you speak from the perspective of a new person? You don't know how welcoming/unwelcoming this place is.

Everyone that has mentioned gripes about it are speaking as veterans that know the ins and outs of this place back and front. New users don't tend to know every inch of the place when they first arrive. You guys are speaking about internal things that you know about speaking from a veterans point of view and I don't think that makes sense.

But everyone was new once...

Yes but everyone isn't new nowadays in this environment that we are talking about. Everyone is comparing their new days to what is going on today and that's not the same. Times change.

misspoptart, 216, sopsych, ninetales and Paul smeenus are all new members who have posted in this thread yet low and behold, their posts tend to get left by the wayside for comments on veteran member posts, so it's a catch-22...

Yeah, I mentioned that to Mojo in the shoutbox. Those are the ones we should be paying attention to.

:clap::clap:

They do have over 600 posts though... but yeah I wasn't sure about that one either.

I really don't think this is an appropriate thread for labelling individual members as trolls, sock puppets, or whatever, when the whole point of it in the first place was to discuss ways of getting away from that.
Would it really hurt to judge the tone of the matter being discussed and bite your tongue once in a while?

it's hard though when all that member does is constantly criticize MB but I understand and you can delete this post.

also I edited my other post.

I'm curious about what people are referring to when they say they think this place is harsh to new members. Maybe I'm missing something here but I don't generally see people being mean to new members or anything. The worst thing I see is that they're often overlooked, but that's true of every forum I've ever been to so I guess I don't see that as really a notable attribute of MB. Is there something else I'm missing here?

I think the original post was more gearing towards how to get new members to stay on the forum and avoid all of the bitchiness/cliqueyness, rather than how new members are received, perhaps?

I think we're perhaps blowing out of proportion the whole thing about new people joining.

You can't make people stay if they want to and I don't think there's a massive amount of hostility towards people who do join. I think there's a feeling out process, seeing what this person is like, testing them and that kind of thing, but I've never been to a forum where that hasn't happened.

Basically if someone makes an introduction thread and about 10 people welcome them to the forum and they leave after doing nothing but a couple of posts in that thread I don't really see what else we can do, in the same way if someone says on the forum 'I like this band' and I say 'tell us why you like them' and try to get them to expand on the issue and they don't I'm obviously going not bother with them and be more drawn to the new members who do talk as well as the existing members.

There's been times when I've lurked around a forum, joined it and then thought, nahh.
It happens, a lot.

I'll talk to them, I'll have a laugh and a joke with them, but I'm not going to bottlefeed them endlessly in the hope they make one interesting post one day.

You have some really great insight here, a lot that I agree with.

I think that a big problem here is that everyone wants to tell everyone else to "stop" doing this and "refrain from" doing that, but there are ways to add positivity without completely removing everything that is problematic. We all could stop getting so caught up in drama and stop attacking others personally. But people could also try to add more to the music side of the forum. Rather than solely sitting around in the lounge, they could try to do more to talk about music.

For a long time, my taste in music was changing, and definitely becoming more mainstream, and I didn't feel that I had a lot of places to talk about what I liked. I'm not always interested in specific threads for bands, and I prefer musical discussion. But I honestly feel like a lot of people here don't want to be involved in that discussion, so it's hard for me to stay in the music forums sometimes, because everything I keep up with seems to die down within a week, while threads about anything political will stay going for months. This is fine, but there's no balance.

I distinctly remember the lounge being the same when I first joined, and the arguments being similar. There WAS drama before, and I don't know why everyone's forgetting that. Some members have been around for a while and become friends, and stand up for each other when they want to, and if you only think there are some people doing this, you need to take another look around.

tldr; people need to try to be more involved in the MUSIC community. instead of trying to remove everything that bothers us, perhaps we should try harder to be more supportive when it comes to music threads.

What makes you think they aren't?

The problem with the musical discussion is that its work. Either you go listen to something you've never heard before and give a pithy response on the one or two songs you've heard, or you go listen to the full album (or a few) and that takes time a lot of folks don't have.

I'd love to write more reviews, but when I do they go largely ignored, or worse you get some response that you (me) can't figure out and the most polite thing to do is just not respond. And sure, we can force ourselves, but music shouldn't really be a research project. We come to music at our own pace, and stumble over things and get passionate about it. The problem is that the further out on the fringe you go (and that's the benefit of the site), the fewer people are going to be interested.

If anything, we need a musical sightseeing tour. Like we'd agree to just let person A ramble for a week in some thread, and we all respond to their posts. It would be cohesive, and you could all enter the discussion form the same point. I don't think coming down from the mountain saying "get your **** together and talk about music more" like a parent screaming at a child is going to achieve anything but more disinterest in the site.

What makes me think they aren't is the activity in the lounge compared to the activity in the music threads.
I didn't say no one is involved, I said everyone should try to be MORE involved. Which is a community effort.

I don't think I'm "coming down from the mountain." I think I've made several attempts to include my taste in music and to get discussion going, and they are either dying out or not being noticed, which is obvious since I haven't made any review threads or anything that required much work for a response.

You sound angry. That wasn't directed at you. Its a general statement.

I'm not going to stick around to hash it out because I'm volunteering at the SPCA today, but for instance:

http://www.musicbanter.com/introduct...2-im-back.html

Four posts, all of them mocking, none of them welcoming this poster to the site, none of them asking her interests or attempting to start a conversation. The posts themselves aren't particularly harmful, but the impression all of them give together? And the mockery is based on... what exactly? Her username? Our first impression here is not overtly offensive, but it's not welcoming or interesting. And then we complain that people don't stay, after we make no effort to keep them?

Really? I thought mine was quite jovial.
She must have thought so too because the last time she was here she friended me on LastFM.

My post was a legitimate question. This thread is just petty. Things change. They always will. If you want more music discussion then it's up to YOU to make it happen, instead of crying because things aren't the way you want them to be.

We all hate you. We just can't resist those god damn dimples.

Everyone seems to be complaining about the massive threads that continually go on in the lounge like it is a bad thing. It doesnt affect whats posted elsewhere...I actually very much enjoy those long political or religious threads. Yes this is a music forum and I could go elsewhere for them but why would I? I like the atmosphere and members here...

Every forum I am a member of is the same way. The Bodybuilding.com forums largest section is the Misc section. Do you know what the average threads about?...neither do I because it could be anything.

I've been here a few years - I don't consider myself new. Anyway, I noticed my comments were mostly disregarded and replies focused on points of disagreement. That echoes past experiences in this section and the Music section. The latter I agree is full of short, often off-topic answers and goes back to esoteric or bland topics - which I the provocative-subject generator personally could fix if I felt valued on this site.

But back to my idea from yesterday - is there a technical way to restrict new members from creating threads in The Lounge?

I'm just trying to point out the possible sources of complaints that were voiced early on. Someone mentioned that new members don't stay. I'm offering an explanation of why they may not.

And as for the bolded, in the past I have worked very, very hard for this community, and I have gone to great lengths to create forum events and topics to encourage discussion and a sense of community, but I did eventually tire of the work. The nature of album clubs, secret santas, and writing competitions involve work by everyone: those who create the events and those who participate in them. After the first year, I found that the participation declined past the point of value of the upkeep the threads required, so I wrapped them up.

Anyone is welcome to kick them back up again. It doesn't have to be a moderator, and for example, Chrysalis is starting a new album club which I think is a splendid idea. If anybody wants help starting a project, with the rules or graphics or whatnot, they are welcome to PM me, and I hope they know that.

I see only one post in that thread that I'd even remotely consider to have mocking tone to it, and it was pretty light in tone. The rest sounded like a friendly welcom to me.

Not to mention the first post links to a 5 year old thread by the same person for the same reason where people reacted THE SAME WAY.

*forehead smack*

FFS...

I'm perfectly prepared to offer an olive branch, as long as it doesn't get rammed up my ----! I don't like Ignoring (with a big I) anyone, and am quite happy to take Hermione/Sansa Stark/whatever off Ignore and try to engage more in topics with her BUT I won't be anyone's doormat. I don't like confrontation; I'm a quiet person by nature and just want peace in my life but you can only push me so far, and these things go both ways.

If my experiment works, great, but if I immediately, or quickly, begin getting snide comments, one-word answers, GIFs, memes or outright insults again then I'll expect one of two things to happen: 1) the behaviour should be and must be stamped down upon hard and without mercy. If I were insulting someone I would expect the same treatment, so it's not fair that certain people get more and more and more rope till they eventually hang themselves. I'm not saying ban on the first insult or whatever, but a warning should be issued, and if that warning is not heeded then a ban could follow.

My own personal experience with this particular member has been that I've felt like I was more or less fighting my own battle against her, while others --- mods --- let it go on and I don't know why. Maybe they thought it was funny, or not as serious as I felt it to be. Maybe they felt I deserved it, or had encouraged it in some way, and to be fair once or twice I had. But when someone completely out of the blue tells you to eff off when you weren't even communicating with them, I think that's where I have to draw the line. Oh yeah, option 2: I'll just put her back on Ignore.

I'm not asking anyone to take my side but if someone is being verbally bullied and the conversation is descending into insults, tirades and swearwords, then I think it's time for someone to take action. As I say, I'm prepared to make the first move, in this instance, but if my efforts fall on deaf ears I would appreciate some backup, or I'll just judge the thing as a failure and go back to the way I am now. I'm not asking for anyone to side WITH me AGAINST anyone, but I do feel that when a line is crossed then the mods should be swift to step in, particularly with someone who has had this problem before.

Like most people here, I don't want drama. If I want drama I'll watch TV. I just want to talk to people and discuss things, and if someone doesn't agree with me that's great: everyone has their opinion and I respect it, but they have to respect mine. If we can get to that point, then I think a lot of the fights and drama could be avoided.

This thread is not for singling out individual members just because they might be guilty of perpetuating drama or trolling people or whatever. It's for ways on how to curb the drama in the Lounge and get more music discussion happening.

Ironic thread is ironic.

People were hella mean to me when I first joined - I had mods tell me to go away and not come back. But did I listen? No. Because it's the internet. People are mean on the internet, it's come to be expected. Whether or not that's acceptable is beside the point, but those who want to stay and contribute will. I've been on forums far more malicious than this but no matter where I go PEOPLE WHO WANT TO DISCUSS MUSIC WILL DISCUSS MUSIC - DISCUSSION FINDS A WAY.

I don't think that we are particularly unwelcoming. If a group of people were standing around in real life talking about music and some dude with an MCR shirt walked up and was like "hi guys I'm new here" we would absolutely not be expected to accept him into the group without question - he has to prove himself worthy of joining the discussion (by worthy, of course, I mean he has to hold his own in conversation). Maybe that's a ****ed up way of looking at it but like I said, if people want to discuss music they'll discuss music. If you don't like the drama that happens in the lounge, don't read the lounge posts. Ffs.

So much this. *WAY* too much is being made of how "mean" we are to newbies. We really aren't.

Wise mans quote.












But seriously I do not think we treat new members that badly. It isnt like they should be given loads of respect...they have not earned it. Do you give loads of respect and your heart to a stranger...hell no they have to earn it.

This is actually a very good point and probably the cause of everything rotten on MB at the moment. Sure gradually over a period of time certain long term members (mentioning no names) have pushed their limits and there is certainly a semblance of a gang mentality amongst them in some cases, I've noticed certain people backing up others or turning a blind eye in certain situations, it's nothing serious but it's there. Once again I fall back on my original idea of stronger moderation, because only the mods have the power to install a level of control here. I mean when a long term member goes bad, there's really no excuse for it, they're hardly newbies that need reminding of how to behave:)

Finally I kind of praise Trollheart's post above, reflecting that MB should actually be a place that people can come to and discuss stuff without too much hassle....... who needs hassle on an internet forum when life's full of it anyway!

The mods have been mods too long. Time for new mods.

For the sake of mankind, let's hope you're not one.

WWWP for Mod 2013

I've read through this whole thread now and I agree with most points, that the lounge is definitely taking the limelight away from the music forums.

I do however think a lack of new members affects me (personally). I only have maybe 4 members here I can discuss music with and it gets pretty boring after a while because their main interests don't lie within Electronica music. So new members hanging around would mean more people who listen to a similar type of music as me.

I think that the cliques on musicbanter are pretty damaging to the forum, I don't think that arguments through discussion are necessarily bad for the forum at all, I find that it's the random nasty jibes that members like to throw around that are particularly damaging to this place. I've been here 4 years and I don't know where to look when it happens, nevermind someone who's just signed up.

Possibly approached that badly but those members have already been mentioned; I wasn't the first to refer to her and saying "a certain member" would be pointless really, as everyone knows who I'm talking about. But I would argue that the problem isn't just with the lounge; some members will almost follow others around into any thread they're in and hassle them. What I simply suggested was faster reaction to insults being cast or personal attacks. There is definitely too much leeway allowed in some cases, virtually none in others, and I think this hurts the perception of the place. When you're faced with a rule that says "no personal attacks" and someone attacks you personally and gets away with it, and keeps getting away with it, that makes a mockery of the rules and definitely instigates a sort of one-rule-for-them-another-for-us mentality, whether it's intended or not. It's like that old thing, "oh it's just so-and-so, that's how he/she is" and people get away with something that nobody else would.

I remember once I said something I shouldn't have and next time I logged on I discovered I was banned. No warning, no nothing. Gone for I think two days. Deservedly so too, but that sort of punishment should be meted out regardless of who the member is. If it gets to a point where one member or a group of members can basically say what they like, while another gets kicked for either responding or making similar comments, it shows a sense of unfair treatment.

I just think the drama would be less if people knew they were playing with fire. Attack someone once, and you get warned, second time you're banned. That needs to happen across the board, not based on who a member is or isn't. And I think that's all very relevant to the discussion here; I'm not trying to blacken anyone's name or get back at anyone. My post merely said (in my typical longwinded way) that I was willing to let bygones be bygones, but not be walked on. That was all. I think a more zero-tolerance policy with personal attacks would show people the mods are serious about stamping this sort of thing out. Am I wrong? Is it wrong to say I'll try but I expect the other party to try too? Is this a bad example to give to others? I didn't think it was personally.

You know, you give people an inch they'll take a foot, and next thing you know you ain't got a leg to stand on!