I agree that "being the change" can make sense, but in this case I don't think it is enough. I don't know why Sopsych doesn't want to try, but I can think of reasons why I think it is not a lasting solution.

This is a harsh comparison because I generally enjoy MB and the community here, but being the change right now is something I generally see as a way to treat the symptom, but not the disease. It is better to treat the disease and the symptoms will disappear and you won't need to hold them in check with constant effort from every member on the forums.

The rules say trolls should be moderated. You suggest getting rid of the person who is getting trolled rather than the trolls. This is not in accordance with the rules, so what is it?

In your opinion he's being trolled.
In mine he's just as guilty as anyone.
so it goes back to my original question.

Considering the attack he's been under, I'm surprised he hasn't acted out more.

Tore, plenty of people have already engaged with him reasonably. you can dress this up as "anger to create power over the conversation" all you like, but the simple fact of it is he has a clear anti-mod agenda and mercilessly pursues it to the point of an absolute, abject refusal to even address the positive efforts made by others that are already making possible the change he insists isn't happening.

this has gone on long enough and as people, not arbiters of some rigid set of rules,we have to recognise that sop is the disruptive party,the one causing this particular problem, and moreover, the one who should be removed from the conversation until such time as he can actually take part in it without coming across as a condescending,holier than thou, baiting troll.

I've now gone back through the thread and read every post by him. I see he has some rather radical ideas, like the idea that mods should be voted for and that in order for them to stay on, they have to be re-chosen every year. He writes moderators should not participate in forum drama. He writes that he doesn't want to create more music threads in the current environment because they are likely to be subjected to bad behaviour. He suggests that moderators should delete replies which only consists of a picture.

They may be extreme opinions, but they don't seem particularly provocative or offensive to me. None of them seem trolly to me. It is not a requirement here that noone takes offense at our opinions, is it? It is clear that he thinks the current system doesn't work, but while most of us may think of the changes he suggests as a bit excessive, isn't the whole point of this thread rooted in that somehow the way things are done here does not prevent drama, hostility and clickyness?

In his first post, Duga writes the following :

Does this make Duga a condescending, holier than thou, baiting troll? What about me? I don't think our mods have been good at preventing drama, hostility and clicky behaviour lately either and I think they should protect Sopsych from getting trolled just as much as they should protect me or you from getting trolled. Or anyone else for that matter. I also think some of the mods have been mods for too long. It's a job that tires you out over time. You lose interest. For that reason, I think changing mods more often can be a good idea. Not to mention I think we should all move to a new site.

Does that make me a condescending, holier-than-thou, baiting troll with an agenda too?

I want to discuss these things seriously. If people take offense at everything and act on that, then we can't.

I find it amazing how all the Sopsych related threads were pulled from here to start a separate thread for him, so this could go back to how it should be. Since then that thread for Sopsych has been closed down and this one has gone back to being s Sopsych thread again :laughing:

After all that's occurred, shouldn't the guy be given an ultimatum now to either 1) Desist from his gripe on this thread and accept things how they are or 2) Go about creating some of the so-called more interesting threads that he feels the forum needs.

For me, the problem is not his opinions. It's how he keeps reiterating them after members have said they won't work for technical reasons or that they don't agree. It hasn't gotten through, it seems, and to keep saying the same things over again and ask questions that have continuously been answered by other members and moderators time and again IS trolling, in my honest opinion. The whole "schtick" (as Fred has put it) has become a farce now. Attempts by other members like Dr. Rez, AwwSugar, Trollheart, et al to create threads and foster and encourage music discussion is not all smoke and mirrors like Sopsych thinks.

He complains that there is no music discussion happening, and when I pointed out some new threads that he could participate in or simply just read and browse through, he shot them down saying he did not wish to participate, and did not investigate into OTHER threads himself, as if the threads I chose were the be all and end all of music discussion here. I'm seriously at a loss for what can or should be done now to say to this member "Look there are all kinds of discussions happening!" and provide some links as a starting point. Not even bothering to check out existing music and other active discussions, and then coming here to complain about the lack of conversations happening, is crazy.

There is a ridiculous amount of white knighting going on in this thread. It's really getting old now, and it's not effective. Tore and Erica, I love you both, but I think you are both seeing this issue through rose coloured glasses.

My interest in Sopsych now is that I think the situation with him in a way illustrates the point of this thread. Our community is full of cliquey drama and hostility. It is us who make up the community who make it like that. How is it we collectively achieve that? Do we realize what part of our behaviour it is which causes things to be that way?

We have to be analytical and here's a situation to analyze.

Analysis: the mods have been mods for year. As the mods have anything but laissez-faire in their use of the ban hammer and their other authorities, it's reasonable to assume their style of moderation has led to the current predicament. Further, as the mods (rightly or wrongly) have a certain level of esteem on the board, this has allowed cliques to ossify and led to a certain amount of bitchiness.

Examples of dramatic failures of moderation: link. In this thread, the OP is dismayed that not everyone shares his opinion, and as the moderator in question shared his opinion, the thread is locked. This is a good example of both how cliques among the boards mods led to a quieting of discussion that was completely within the rules.