We've got a major problem...

Freebase Dali · 08-17-2013, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedestrian

It seems to me that people truly believe they're responding appropriately in dramatic situations (though observers might disagree), and that kind of thinking can't be reasoned with. I'm not really going anywhere with this point, I'm just disheartened by every angle of discussion and quietly crying about it.

I agree, and the fact that the angle doesn't only point one way is a major reason we need collaboration on this.

Astronomer · 08-17-2013, 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

Here's the thing about being a mod: when you are one you don't get the privilege of just ignoring forum drama. It's actually part of your responsibilities to respond to it in some way if it's getting out of hand. So you can imagine the frustration that comes with the reality that, when you try to deal with it in one way or another, no matter what you do, someone is going to be on your case about it. It's absolutely the shittiest part of being a mod. And even shittier still is when someone you like and respect jumps on you about a decision you've made to try and keep the peace. That's the point where you want to just throw up your hands and say, "Fuck it. Why the hell am I volunteering for this?"

I completely get that, and that would suck. I, for one, would not be able to deal with the stuff you have to put up with on a daily basis because I can't stand pointless drama, so I really do feel for you.

My intentions were not to be "on your case" about anything and I certainly didn't "jump on you." You took my post as offensive when I was in fact just commenting on the whole discussion scenario involving a plethora of other members, rather than YOUR personal actions as a mod

That's what saddens me, posts are being responded to so defensively (not just my post, but others posts and other posters) and I think that is part of the problem.

I wonder how things would be different if people stopped immediately looking for a reason to respond to posts with such hostility. Like I said, no one on this forum intends to cause such drama so why are we constantly seeking it? It sucks.

Guybrush · 08-17-2013, 03:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Astronomer

That's fair enough Janszoon, I understand the position you were put in and why you moved the thread. It was not really attack at the mods for moving the discussion to a new thread, but rather, the fact that the original discussion had gotten to that point, where a whole new thread had to be created to continue the drama due to various members posts and discussion turns. I just think it's sad that people feed off and create so much drama and constantly respond to posts with such hostility and defense (which ultimately ended up targeting a member of the forum and another pointless, closed thread).

I agree with this. I understand some sort of action was needed and perhaps it had to be a choice between different evils and finding the lesser one. What's sad is that our members get riled up to the point where that is necessary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VEGANGELICA

As I've seen in this thread, personal attacks (such as on sopsych) create a negative atmosphere that may make people feel less likely to want to participate in the community. The response to sopsych certainly wouldn't encourage *him* to post more about music, but I hope he continues. I admire his passion and knowledge about '80s pop rock.

In my view, our member sopsych simply agreed with the original moderator's opinion that MB is in trouble due to the nasty drama:

I agree. And not only does it discourage Sopsych from posting, it discourages me from posting as well and, I would assume, other people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VEGANGELICA

^ How do we attract members who like to discuss music deeply and who don't bash people for their views?

I recommend that we...

* don't attack members by calling them trolls;
* don't tell members to leave the site when they dislike some of the dynamics here;
* don't misrepresent members such as sopsych by saying they contribute nothing, when they do;
* don't encourage mods to ban someone;
* don't make threads that appear to target one individual (as in this case sopsych) as if he were the only one here to complain about the forum.

* DO disagree with people's viewpoints when you disagree with them;
* DO stand up politely for your fellow members;
* DO encourage people to share their opinions about topics, even if you disagree with their opinion;
* DO report personal insults and attacks;
* DO enjoy music discussion with members and appreciate their contributions.

I agree with these points as well

Quote:

Originally Posted by VEGANGELICA

I feel that sopsych did not derail the thread from the initial topic. In fact, he was staying on topic by pointing out, like moderator Duga did, that the negative atmosphere (meanness, nastiness, jumping on posters with personal attacks) creates a less welcoming environment such that not as many people may want to share deeply and openly about music here.

I feel the way this thread evolved is ironically a perfect example of the negative climate that sopsych has wanted to change and that duga originally pointed out was a problem here.

I agree, Sopsych's posts are generally on topic. He hasn't broken any rules that I've seen. What derails the thread are people's reactions towards him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedestrian

Granted, I haven't set such a good example as of late, but I do try to drop out of a conversation and stop being involved the moment I feel agitated by it. There's no way to say it without sounding like a preacher, but I think if more of us decided to drop heated-arguments, it'd be a more comfortable place for everyone.

I won't claim I always do it, but I feel like I quite often write responses in which my intention is to soften or at least not escalate hostilities. Sometimes, I got the perfect nasty retort in my mind

but I know posting it will only make matters worse and so I don't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freebase Dali

I don't think this strategy is a revelation in terms of human behavior. The problem isn't that people don't know the best way to approach a situation, it's that we're emotional and impulsive, the lot of us. Suggesting that we all flip a switch and decide to act upon our better judgement is probably less reasonable in realistic terms.
If "peace" (in so many words) was an effective motivation, we'd never have gotten to this point to begin with.

Some very good points here that I think hint at the root of it all. The culture here is a result of the environment here. We can't just flip the switch, as you mention. We have to create an environment which fosters a social culture where people moderate their own replies more when they want to post in anger.

The only way to do that, I think, is by moderation. I think moderation is also the only way by which Vegangelica's list of points could be achieved.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Astronomer

Not at all, I just think it sucks that people are upset and angered so easily.

What's ironic is that you now worry that your post has caused offense and you now have a bad conscience.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

Here's the thing about being a mod: when you are one you don't get the privilege of just ignoring forum drama. It's actually part of your responsibilities to respond to it in some way if it's getting out of hand. So you can imagine the frustration that comes with the reality that, when you try to deal with it in one way or another, no matter what you do, someone is going to be on your case about it. It's absolutely the shittiest part of being a mod. And even shittier still is when someone you like and respect jumps on you about a decision you've made to try and keep the peace. That's the point where you want to just throw up your hands and say, "Fuck it. Why the hell am I volunteering for this?"

I get that. Sometimes, a situation demands action and there are no good alternatives. Any action is bound to cause a negative response. It's sad that the job is like that.

Guybrush · 08-17-2013, 03:24 AM

A lot of the MB drama is a result of anger on the forums. I wonder, why are people so quick to anger here? Is it because we've been here too long and got too comfortable and now feel a sense of entitlement to get angry whenever we want? Or is it because it is an effective weapon in the social competitions around here?

Something many may not consider much is that anger is a way to control a social situation. When people get angry with me, it is usually because they take offense at something I write as part of a discussion. We're discussing with rational arguments, but then it suddenly turns hostile with ensuing name calling etc. What happens then is the rules of the game changes. Instead of trying to win the discussion using reason, it is now about ridiculing eachother. Or it can be about sabotaging the entire discussion. Maybe the one taking offense wasn't able to win a discussion with rational arguments so they decide, consciously or unconsciously, to take the discussion to a different level or sabotage it altogether with some "righteous anger". Perhaps what's important is suddenly not the point being argued, but how the arguments make others feel.

So I think a lot of the forum anger are attempts at controlling the discussions.

The Sopsych situation here is a result of the same. Some members here don't like Sopsych who is a newcomer here with provocative opinions and so they start to act out. The goal of many of those angry posts will be to derail the thread, cause a ruckus, and hopefully blame everything on Sopsych. When a moderator comes in and bans Sopsych or otherwise take some action against him, then that goal is achieved.

This goes on a lot around here. Do you mods realize how you are being used/played?

djchameleon · 08-17-2013, 05:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

I agree, Sopsych's posts are generally on topic. He hasn't broken any rules that I've seen. What derails the thread are people's reactions towards him.

Look up the rules on baiting. Sopsych's posts being on topic isn't the issue. The issue is not that he has a negative opinion that others don't agree with. It's the fact that the way he is interacting/communicating with people and not even paying attention the points they are making when they have made them numerous times in various different ways. It is almost like talking to a child and re-telling them in different ways why they can't have said toy. I'm just using that as an example. I'm not calling Sopsych a child just that his behavior exhibits it at times.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

The Sopsych situation here is a result of the same. Some members here don't like Sopsych who is a newcomer here with provocative opinions and so they start to act out. The goal of many of those angry posts will be to derail the thread, cause a ruckus, and hopefully blame everything on Sopsych. When a moderator comes in and bans Sopsych or otherwise take some action against him, then that goal is achieved.

It's strange how much you defend Sopsych and I definitely feel like it's because of how much he praises you. It's something that you are doing subconciously. I know you aren't the vain type and you probably don't notice you are doing it but the main issue with Sopsych who is NOT a newcomer. He's been around since 2011 with this same rhetoric. He has worn down people's patience for him. A large majority of the time he only shows up when issues like this thread is going on to criticize the mods and talk about how they aren't doing their job up to his standards. He also states which mods that he doesn't like and feels like they should be a mod in general. I really don't understand how you guys can't tell who Sopsych really is based off of that last part but I won't go into wild speculation here. Sure, he has made some music posts because he has 600 something odd posts but look at his posting history and the posts that he has made in different threads. Do some research and you will find all the answers that you need.

**Janszoon** · 08-17-2013, 05:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

A lot of the MB drama is a resu
The Sopsych situation here is a result of the same. Some members here don't like Sopsych who is a newcomer here with provocative opinions and so they start to act out. The goal of many of those angry posts will be to derail the thread, cause a ruckus, and hopefully blame everything on Sopsych. When a moderator comes in and bans Sopsych or otherwise take some action against him, then that goal is achieved.

He's not a new member. He's been here for two and a half years. It looks like you've only noticed him now that he's spent a whole thread praising you to the heavens, but believe me he's been antagonizing people and derailing threads for quite a long time. People are tired of it, that's why you see the responses that you see. I mean don't you think it's a little odd that even someone like Fred, who gets along with everyone, has chimed in and told him to knock it off?

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

This goes on a lot around here. Do you mods realize how you are being used/played?

Do you realize how you are? Just because he blows smoke up your ass doesn't mean he's worth defending.

Urban Hat€monger ? · 08-17-2013, 05:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

The Sopsych situation here is a result of the same. Some members here don't like Sopsych who is a newcomer here with provocative opinions and so they start to act out. The goal of many of those angry posts will be to derail the thread, cause a ruckus, and hopefully blame everything on Sopsych. When a moderator comes in and bans Sopsych or otherwise take some action against him, then that goal is achieved.

This goes on a lot around here. Do you mods realize how you are being used/played?

We're not talking about trolls through, we're talking about people like Trollheart or Unknown Soldier and others like them who are really making an effort to post some good stuff and who have never been an issue in regards to their conduct in all the years that they have been members of the forum. And they are getting frustrated over a guy who continually dismisses their efforts yet openly says he has no intention of contributing to the forum himself.

You are welcome to your opinion but I feel in this case you are totally wrong. When members who have never been any trouble to moderate and who are always respectful to other members start getting annoyed about someone that's a clear sign you need to do something about it.

Guybrush · 08-17-2013, 06:05 AM

Jans, even if you forget about Sopsych or step back in time a little, I think my post is just as valid. People use drama and anger to control discussions here and sometimes, getting mods involved is a part of that tactic. Members sometimes want to escalate things to the point where mods have to intervene.

Rather than just disregard my argument because you think I have smoke blown up my ass, do you really think this does not happen?

edit :

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urban Hat€monger ?

We're not talking about trolls through, we're talking about people like Trollheart or Unknown Soldier and others like them who are really making an effort to post some good stuff and who have never been an issue in regards to their conduct in all the years that they have been members of the forum. And they are getting frustrated over a guy who continually dismisses their efforts yet openly says he has no intention of contributing to the forum himself.

You are welcome to your opinion but I feel in this case you are totally wrong. When members who have never been any trouble to moderate and who are always respectful to other members start getting annoyed about someone that's a clear sign you need to do something about it.

It is okay to get annoyed of course. I just think that trolling (ex. as it is against the rules) is not okay, even when it's a productive, long time member doing it against someone unpopular. Sometimes, it is important that the same rules apply to everyone.

In your post now, it seems your attitude is excusing towards the behaviour of members who have been here long and are generally productive. I have also been here long, but I am willing to admit that I may need a reminder on how I should act around here now and then and I accept that telling me is part of the responsiblity that comes with the mod job.

**Janszoon** · 08-17-2013, 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

Jans, even if you forget about Sopsych or step back in time a little, I think my post is just as valid. People use drama and anger to control discussions here and sometimes, getting mods involved is a part of that tactic. Members sometimes want to escalate things to the point where mods have to intervene.

Rather than just disregard my argument because you think I have smoke blown up my ass, do you really think this does not happen?

Yes, I agree that people do indeed to that. In fact that's very much the MO of the person we are discussing. Notice how, despite my attempt to remove the derail, he still succeeded in making the conversation focus on him.

Urban Hat€monger ? · 08-17-2013, 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

It is okay to get annoyed of course. I just think that trolling (ex. as it is against the rules) is not okay, even when it's a productive, long time member doing it against someone unpopular. Sometimes, it is important that the same rules apply to everyone.

In your post now, it seems your attitude is excusing towards the behaviour of members who have been here long and are generally productive. I have also been here long, but I am willing to admit that I may need a reminder on how I should act around here now and then and I accept that telling me is part of the responsiblity that comes with the mod job.

I'm not saying I excuse it.
I'm saying I would take a look at why it was happening.

08-17-2013, 03:24 AM	#324 (permalink)
Guybrush Juicious Maximus III Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Scabb Island Posts: 6,525	A lot of the MB drama is a result of anger on the forums. I wonder, why are people so quick to anger here? Is it because we've been here too long and got too comfortable and now feel a sense of entitlement to get angry whenever we want? Or is it because it is an effective weapon in the social competitions around here? Something many may not consider much is that anger is a way to control a social situation. When people get angry with me, it is usually because they take offense at something I write as part of a discussion. We're discussing with rational arguments, but then it suddenly turns hostile with ensuing name calling etc. What happens then is the rules of the game changes. Instead of trying to win the discussion using reason, it is now about ridiculing eachother. Or it can be about sabotaging the entire discussion. Maybe the one taking offense wasn't able to win a discussion with rational arguments so they decide, consciously or unconsciously, to take the discussion to a different level or sabotage it altogether with some "righteous anger". Perhaps what's important is suddenly not the point being argued, but how the arguments make others feel. So I think a lot of the forum anger are attempts at controlling the discussions. The Sopsych situation here is a result of the same. Some members here don't like Sopsych who is a newcomer here with provocative opinions and so they start to act out. The goal of many of those angry posts will be to derail the thread, cause a ruckus, and hopefully blame everything on Sopsych. When a moderator comes in and bans Sopsych or otherwise take some action against him, then that goal is achieved. This goes on a lot around here. Do you mods realize how you are being used/played? __________________ Something Completely Different Last edited by Guybrush; 08-17-2013 at 03:35 AM.