We've got a major problem...

rostasi · 08-11-2013, 09:24 PM

As of today, I've been here a year.

I think the supreme difficulty for new members is that they may think
that they're expected to immediately begin divulging all kinds of stuff
about themselves before they're even acknowledged as simply a music-lover.
I've watched in the last year as new members (ones that aren't promoting themselves)
have become vilified and/or ignored. Some leave...some "join in the conversation" and
are "accepted," but "joining" usually means that you're expected
to go on a lot about things that have little or nothing to do with music.
I have no interest in talking about what goes in or out of various orifices,
what I do for a living, if or what I watch on TV, who I think is great and
grand on the forum, etc. If I did have these interests, they would maybe
come up later - maybe far later - after I've established a musical connection
with the folks here. I'm wondering how many others are only lurking
(or leaving altogether) because they see what happens to those who dive
right into the music talk and get very little or no response to dozens of
music posts while possibly getting all kinds of attention if they'd only,
for example, start flashing their Greta Garbos for the member picture gallery.

There's a second thing that I'm concerned about:

My first post here was a fun exchange with The Batlord.
I loved it because it was a fun, creative swap of sheer silliness
that was a play on a song title. "Great," I thought, "a fun place
about music with people who aren't so serious about themselves!"
Little did I know then that this was an exception. The level of absolute
SERIOUSNESS - I mean down and dirty, name-calling, overt
"I'm god-like and you should follow me" (and sometimes the undeserved fawning
"you should follow him in his greatness") "I don't like this, so get rid of it for everyone"
"it's the Mods fault" "get off my lawn"-level animosity is absolutely extraordinary.
It's almost as if a number of you jumped from puberty to walking with a frame.
It speaks volumes that even in this very thread about how to make this board
more inviting, a guy's perfectly worded first post (before you discovered his
previous name) was shot down because he had "nothing invested in this place."
That person could've been lurking for days. I'm sure if the "join date" was even
months earlier, he would've received the same response. If I were a lurker here for
any amount of time and saw that, you can bet I'd keep my trap shut and just move on.

I can't speak of all of the forums online, but for nearly 20 years and posts
numbering in the 5 figures, I've been on music forums where there's an
easiness, kindness and general goodwill towards members new and old -
where they don't have the feeling that they have to write a dissertation
on musicians and/or albums in order to not be "lazy" (an accusatory word
used here by people who apparently don't like asking questions...or simply observing -
thereby placing the onus on others). After a year here, if I were making a suggestion,
it would be to keep it simple without being simple-minded by not having
divisions of divisions of divisions and try to resist having so many rules
that have to be adhered to before people get a fair shake. Also, have music as
the focus, but don't get so uptight about how people have to present their ideas.
It's all workable and potentially delectable if you just politely ask.
As was wisely said here recently,

"If you want to have a discussion, have a discussion," that's all.

Rod

sopsych · 08-11-2013, 09:54 PM

Good stuff there, including many points I hadn't thought of. Although if part of that refers to me, I want to clarify that I'm not blaming everything on the mods or even much on most of the mods.

I'd move on myself if I knew of a site that's more active than this with a decent atmosphere and discussion about many different genres of music.

Arya Stark · 08-11-2013, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

That seems reasonable to me. What happens when not everybody ignores them though? Should mods start deleting the trolling posts or the responses or both? Or should the conversation be left to take its natural course, even if it leads to more of the kind of drama everybody hates?

I feel like this thread is just past the point of being helpful anymore. He's mad he's being called a troll but instead of trying to add to the help, he's blaming everyone else.

I think in cases where people are resorting to name-calling, there should be moderation. But in this case, the conversation honestly seems harmless. Do you think? It's your call tho.

**Janszoon** · 08-11-2013, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arya Stark

I feel like this thread is just past the point of being helpful anymore. He's mad he's being called a troll but instead of trying to add to the help, he's blaming everyone else.

I think in cases where people are resorting to name-calling, there should be moderation. But in this case, the conversation honestly seems harmless. Do you think? It's your call tho.

I actually just meant the question in general sense. I'm curious what people think is the best way to deal with trolling.

Arya Stark · 08-11-2013, 10:04 PM

Oh I know you weren't asking me specifically. I just didn't want to sound like I thought I had the only valid opinion lol.

**Janszoon** · 08-11-2013, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arya Stark

Oh I know you weren't asking me specifically. I just didn't want to sound like I thought I had the only valid opinion lol.

I was asking you (and also anyone else who wants to respond of course). I'm saying the question wasn't about a specific troll, just about how we should respond to trolling in general.

djchameleon · 08-11-2013, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

I was asking you (and also anyone else who wants to respond of course). I'm saying the question wasn't about a specific troll, just about how we should respond to trolling in general.

aren't you pretty heavy handed with trolling in general? isn't it part of the rules of the site?

It's good that you treat trolling that way especially when other people aren't realizing what's going on and continues to feed the troll.

I used to post on this one site that was so strict about trolling that you couldn't even bring up that the other person was a troll out loud. you had to send a message to a mod about the trollish behavior. If you mentioned the word troll in a post then you'd get a slap on the wrist as well as the troll. Well the troll would be banned but you'd be infracted. I'm not saying we have to be that strict about it but I feel like you guys let sop get away with way too much in this thread but just a personal opinion.

sopsych · 08-11-2013, 10:21 PM

I know for a fact I'm considered a troll, and I believe that was a swipe at me and perhaps intended to scare me. But I'm not a troll. If tore had said those things instead of me, it would have gone over fine. Trolling isn't much of a problem on this site, from what I've seen. (Most trolls would want a larger audience.)

How about people actually comment on rostasi's post? I guess I'm ever the optimist that many people will realize the disease before it kills this place.

**Janszoon** · 08-11-2013, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djchameleon

aren't you pretty heavy handed with trolling in general? isn't it part of the rules of the site?

It's good that you treat trolling that way especially when other people aren't realizing what's going on and continues to feed the troll.

I used to post on this one site that was so strict about trolling that you couldn't even bring up that the other person was a troll out loud. you had to send a message to a mod about the trollish behavior. If you mentioned the word troll in a post then you'd get a slap on the wrist as well as the troll. Well the troll would be banned but you'd be infracted. I'm not saying we have to be that strict about it but I feel like you guys let sop get away with way too much in this thread but just a personal opinion.

So do you feel the response to trolling should be, from members in general and also from mods?

djchameleon · 08-11-2013, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

So do you feel the response to trolling should be, from members in general and also from mods?

Yes, if members aren't able to avoid the trolling then mod intervention is necessary. Use your discretion like you do with all other matters.

08-11-2013, 09:54 PM	#262 (permalink)
sopsych Music Addict Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: indoors Posts: 722	Good stuff there, including many points I hadn't thought of. Although if part of that refers to me, I want to clarify that I'm not blaming everything on the mods or even much on most of the mods. I'd move on myself if I knew of a site that's more active than this with a decent atmosphere and discussion about many different genres of music. __________________ If you have ideas or feedback for the site, visit The Musicbanter Improvement Thread.

08-11-2013, 10:21 PM	#268 (permalink)
sopsych Music Addict Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: indoors Posts: 722	I know for a fact I'm considered a troll, and I believe that was a swipe at me and perhaps intended to scare me. But I'm not a troll. If tore had said those things instead of me, it would have gone over fine. Trolling isn't much of a problem on this site, from what I've seen. (Most trolls would want a larger audience.) How about people actually comment on rostasi's post? I guess I'm ever the optimist that many people will realize the disease before it kills this place. __________________ If you have ideas or feedback for the site, visit The Musicbanter Improvement Thread.

08-11-2013, 09:24 PM	#261 (permalink)
rostasi . Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 4,007	As of today, I've been here a year. I think the supreme difficulty for new members is that they may think that they're expected to immediately begin divulging all kinds of stuff about themselves before they're even acknowledged as simply a music-lover. I've watched in the last year as new members (ones that aren't promoting themselves) have become vilified and/or ignored. Some leave...some "join in the conversation" and are "accepted," but "joining" usually means that you're expected to go on a lot about things that have little or nothing to do with music. I have no interest in talking about what goes in or out of various orifices, what I do for a living, if or what I watch on TV, who I think is great and grand on the forum, etc. If I did have these interests, they would maybe come up later - maybe far later - after I've established a musical connection with the folks here. I'm wondering how many others are only lurking (or leaving altogether) because they see what happens to those who dive right into the music talk and get very little or no response to dozens of music posts while possibly getting all kinds of attention if they'd only, for example, start flashing their Greta Garbos for the member picture gallery. There's a second thing that I'm concerned about: My first post here was a fun exchange with The Batlord. I loved it because it was a fun, creative swap of sheer silliness that was a play on a song title. "Great," I thought, "a fun place about music with people who aren't so serious about themselves!" Little did I know then that this was an exception. The level of absolute *SERIOUSNESS* - I mean down and dirty, name-calling, overt "I'm god-like and you should follow me" (and sometimes the undeserved fawning "you should follow him in his greatness") "I don't like this, so get rid of it for everyone" "it's the Mods fault" "get off my lawn"-level animosity is absolutely extraordinary. It's almost as if a number of you jumped from puberty to walking with a frame. It speaks volumes that even in this very thread about how to make this board more inviting, a guy's perfectly worded first post (before you discovered his previous name) was shot down because he had "nothing invested in this place." That person could've been lurking for days. I'm sure if the "join date" was even months earlier, he would've received the same response. If I were a lurker here for any amount of time and saw that, you can bet I'd keep my trap shut and just move on. I can't speak of all of the forums online, but for nearly 20 years and posts numbering in the 5 figures, I've been on music forums where there's an easiness, kindness and general goodwill towards members new and old - where they don't have the feeling that they have to write a dissertation on musicians and/or albums in order to not be "lazy" (an accusatory word used here by people who apparently don't like asking questions...or simply observing - thereby placing the onus on others). After a year here, if I were making a suggestion, it would be to keep it simple without being simple-minded by not having divisions of divisions of divisions and try to resist having so many rules that have to be adhered to before people get a fair shake. Also, have music as the focus, but don't get so uptight about how people have to present their ideas. It's all workable and potentially delectable if you just politely ask. As was wisely said here recently, "If you want to have a discussion, have a discussion," that's all. Rod