This is just it though, you're judging people by your own standards and behaviour patterns, you, I and most members on here know what's acceptable and what's not. A lot of people that could come onto the forum, have no desire to conform to what is acceptable and get a greater kick on how far they can push and get. There's people on here form all parts of the world with really only music and the English language to connect them. Apart from that they could be anybody which is both good and bad, the bad is that they have different behaviour patterns and different ways of expressing themselves, especially in a more difficult situations and this can sometimes lead to the problems that have been expressed in this post.

Yeah I feel ya, I'm sure things in the lounge have been up and down. But I've been lurking and posting long enough to realize that the lounge is the most dramatic aspect of MB, and I find it such a shame. I wish I could log on anticipating a very heated debate about music...not politics or gender issues. Since I starting posting 9 months ago, that's all that seems to happen around here. If people like the lounge that's great. I'm just saying that there are 2938390483209 versions of the "lounge" all over the internet, but only one MB. Why not capitalize on its unique characteristics instead of get dragged down by its weaknesses?

There used to be a better balance.
Like people take EVERYTHING so seriously today!

A couple of years ago there were STILL lounge posts. There were STILL posts about banned members and deleted posts and all that bull****. but you know what? it was taken with a grain of salt! People laughed **** off and moved on.

Someone said something about my music taste being sooo immature and stuff a couple of years, but did I whine about it? Did I go to the mods? NO YOU GET OVER IT AND MOVE ON. If I had created a thread, it would have been talked about for .2 seconds. No one would bring it up again. It would be over.

Now someone causes a little drama and it's never forgotten. I think everything is the same but the way people handle things is different. That's what I think the problem is.

Why is everything so serious all of the time now? Like people have their opinions **** gets off topic, bs happens, why is it SO serious?

Yes to all of this. I completely agree. Like I mentioned earlier in this thread I think it would be great if we all made a commitment to avoiding hot button lounge threads in favor of contributing to the music discussion.

I guess I'm not altogether sure what you mean, Arya. I think I'm too out of the loop to even know who/what you're referring to. :) It seems to me that the lounge is just a hotbed for weirdness that is rarely music related. Whether or not certain people spark or fuel that is rather beyond me. I would agree with you that there's no reason to be so serious! If people get easily offended, could it be because the topics people are generating are too sensitive?

I guess I mean that nothing has changed except for how situations are being treated.

Yeah, but the moderation patterns haven't changed in years (Unless you count boobs going psycho). There used to be no problem with this. The way people are (As you put it, with only music and the english language to connect them) hasn't changed, the modding hasn't changed - what *has* changed to cause our current problem?

I think the answer is - longer term members started pushing their limits, and a variety of internal groups formed that changed the forum dynamic. The new members are being given the same short leash they always have been, so changing the way things are modded won't help.

I'm not honestly sure what would help, but what I am sure of is that it has to come from all of us as members, (including the mod team, they're members too), since just imposing rules isn't getting to the core of the issue - if we got incredibly in depth with new moderation rules and stuff, we'd triple the mod teams workload, and maybe we'd be able to treat the symptoms of the deeper problem - but we wouldn't be attacking the problem at the source, and that's no good.

That's not to say the mod team can't try and encourage this their own way, and maybe impose a couple new guidelines to help out, but they should be gentle guidelines aimed at levelling things out so we can focus on and fix the bigger issues. A drastic change isn't needed here - after all, what we want out of this isn't "change the way the forum works" or "Change who the members are" - we're just asking that new members (and old members) get to see a happier, less dramatic picture of the same thing we've always been.

I can commit to that. Since I first arrived, I've had the sense that if I didn't respond to lounge posts or participate in the popular threads I wouldn't fit in or might not get noticed. Somehow, though, it's important to remember that this is a music forum, where neither your post in the member pic thread nor your time spent on tinychat or whatever the f should really matter. Maybe that's what everyone means by cliqueyness. I'm not sure, I've tried to stay out of it so far. But yeah.

I remember when the idea for the political forum in the lounge was raised, I was totally against the idea because I'd seen the kind of sh*tstorms that came with them at other places.

I've seen a few forums with a much older demographic than this one totally ban political discussions because of all the resulting fall out that came from them. If mature adults can't handle those types of discussions I'm hardly surprised they affect this forum so much.

Criticising someones favourite band is one thing, but when you start criticising peoples lifestyles, political leanings & start labelling people without actually directly insulting them it's difficult for us mods to know where to draw the line.

I totally agree with all of this. On every forum I've ever been a part of that had a political forum, it's been the source of most of the biggest problems.

I think the removal of the political forum could definitely be a step in the right direction - the lounge having silly stuff in it is fine, but it *is* a bit jarring and abrasive to have hardcore politics in there, especially with how some of the more political members approach those discussions (IE: Not well, but vehemently nonetheless)

I agree with everything being said about the lounge (especially the political threads).

And I really appreciate the discussion going on here. Thanks for taking this seriously, guys.

I actually agree with it too. That's why when I stupidly made that thread that had to do with both artists and politics, I decided that I just wanted it to be closed. I didn't want arguments and I didn't want politics, yet I made a thread that invited both.

There are also some threads that simply don't make sense as a discussion overall. I'm not going to name anything specific but when threads are asking you to make one decision against another, people are obviously going to argue. When the thread is asking you to talk about something that's offensive, people are going to get offended and arguments will be had.

Maybe threads like this should have some sort of "probation period" where if they seem like they're going to be problematic, they should be watched a little closer to make sure **** doesn't start. If it does, the thread should be closed or there should be a warning.

Is that a good idea or will that cause problems as well?

No I think that's a good idea.
In some of the non political forums I've seen they'll have a news thread where people can comment on whatever is happening in the news, as soon as things start to get a little heated it's... OK that's enough move on to another news story.

I suppose I should admit I'm probably one of the few people here who doesn't log on to find new music. I really don't. I mean, if someone praises something I may try it (Ki, you just got me into Devin Townsend big time and I mean BIG TIME!) but that's more a product than an aim of what I'm looking for here.

Say this is sad all you want, but I live and work (as it were) at home with just my sis as most of you know, and I can't get out to the pub (not that I drink) and don't have any real friends I can see, so I come here to meet the people I have made my friends here. I'm far more interested in hearing what's going on (good or bad) in Vanilla or Unknown Soldier or Urban's life than I am really about what they're listening to; often, I wouldn't be at all interested in their music. But I like them as people.

The Lounge I frequent but there are threads I won't touch and I've become used now to staying out of discussions where I know I might blow a gasket and ignite a fire. I'm certainly guilty of at the very least contributing to some Major Drama (gotta capitalise those!) and do regret it, although I certainly would not take all the blame for any of them. But I'm aware some people find me preachy, holier-than-thou and other things. I'm not really, but I can't do a lot about how people see me; well that's stupid, of course I can. But sometimes no matter how much you defend yourself someone will see you in a certain way and you're never going to change that view.

I personally try as hard as I can not to get involved in drama, not always it has to be said successfully, but I hate having to go to the final, ultimate step of putting someone on Ignore. However, when you're logging on dreading to see a particular username I think that you have arrived at that point where this is your only option.

I used to try welcome new members, but it was really nothing more than a "Hi, welcome, stick around" message and probably came across as the equivalent of a standard letter with the signature on a rubber stamp and signed by some flunky. Still, I suppose you could say at least I tried.

Many of you have it right here: no need to be so serious. We're in all likelihood never going to meet, so even if Hermione wants to smash a chair over my head or I want to punch someone in the face, it's never gonna happen so why stress over it? It's wasteful energy and goes, and gets you, nowhere.

Trite and cliched a phrase as it may be --- and I include myself in this --- can't we all just simply get along?

I just didn't want it to be TOO censored.
Stopping everyone from making those threads seems really difficult.

You never know if each one is going to be bad or not.

Lots of very sensible stuff being said in this thread; Trollheart about ignoring posts; GB about the conduct of debates are both spot on imo.

^ This post made me the saddest of all :( , although I think duga and some other members may be using rose-coloured specs to look at the MB past. I´ve occasionally dipped into some old threads, and the standard of discussion or response wasn´t noticably better than that of today as far as I could see. So I think AwwSugar makes a good point:-

I have no problem with the lounge; to quote Jerry Garcia,"Believe it if you need it, if you don´t just pass it on..."

^ I think Miss P makes a very pertinent remark about newbie mentality here. After all, what most newcomers want is a little recognition, and the lounge seems the best place to get that.

I´m sure I´m not the only one to notice the irony that this community-center thread is much hotter than the music forum threads that it intends to promote. We all like to rub shoulders in the same thread occasionally, and that doesn´t often happen in the music forums. You can post in those and be completely ignored, and I´m sure that affects newbie moral more than the ranting and drama they sometimes witness.

So, in a rather rambling post, I´m suggesting:-
i) the lounge and its policing are being done well enough as is.
ii) MB could encourage more action in the music threads. One possibility could be to re-start the weekly genre threads that Pedestrian, I think, was the last to operate. Remember those ? They were good at generating the frisson of a crowd scene in a music forum. (A variation could also be to nominate a particular forum for attention each week.)
iii) understandably, old-timers (and I don´t exclude myself from this behaviour) sometimes leapfrog newbies´ posts and just reply to their friends posts back up there in the thread somewhere... Perhaps we should be more aware of how demoralizing this may seem to a newbie.

The lounge fits a very specific purpose. It's an outlet for side conversations and other things to happen that would end up happening regardless. When you have a conversation even if it starts out being about music. Conversations are fluid and will stray into other things/discussions. If we take away the lounge, sure there will be more discussions going on in the music area but that doesn't mean it's going to be music-related. Also, there is going to be so many more posts that need to be deleted and warnings given out for going off-topic when people are just trying to co-exist and have a conversation.

Why are people so anti-conversation?

The reason there isn't much music discussions going on is because people don't feel like talking about music 100% of the time when they log on. Sure, they may make a few posts in that area but I guess you guys just want people to log off after they talk about what little music they do. Also, people that have been here for a long time know that when you post a thread about what you are interested in or into. Majority of the time you get little to no recognition about said artist/band. We all have different tastes so when threads are focused on a specific band/artist you are into at the moment it might not get many posts because other people don't feel the same way you do about that particular artist.

We're not anti-conversation, we're anti-arguments, drama, name calling, and insults that happen in the Lounge, more specifically in the Current Events section.

Those things are to be expected though especially in the Current Events section. That's why that area is supposed to be followed closely by mods because things can get heated quickly. I'm pretty sure not many people have read this post.

I guess it can just be easier to turn a blind eye to it and close off the lounge so you don't have to bother regulating that area.

Tougher moderation is fine but people only want it when it applies to others and not them.

Understandable but the Current Events area does warrant it though.

If it was up to me personally I would delete posts in there the moment that people start to criticise the person rather than addressing the topic in hand, and that's any post with any sort of criticism regardless of how much the topic has been discussed in it.
And that means any type of criticism, not just insults.

If people want that I'll do it.

that's actually a good idea for the Current Events section because that area can get out of hand pretty quickly.

It also makes sense to challenge the person's idea instead of the person.

Maybe update that read first thread letting people know that the area will be heavily moderated and that's what will happen in that area.

I tend to log on, click New Posts, scan the list, roll my eyes when I see who made the last post and don't bother checking probably 90% of the threads.

Top of the list is usually 15 threads bumped by the latest spammer. Then there are the threads that have been derailed by several pages of bickering which you can usually identify by the last poster. If I have posted to any threads recently I will check to see how things have progressed usually to find my comments ignored and the thread has gone a different direction.

I guess musically I am often focussed on a particular artist or genre so I will come in through Google and read through back-threads. If a particular poster catches my interest I will search their threads to learn a bit more about them and follow any recommendations. If I find an interesting but neglected thread I will try and bump it but usually don't feel like I have much to contribute as far as reviving any interest in the thread.

Musically I seem to be on the outer around here. There only seem to be a handful of posters that share my interests genre wise.

I guess what I'm saying in a long winded way is that this site is still a good resource as far as researching music but if we can all agree to keep our egos and sniping to a minimum I think it would be a lot better.

The music journals are a fairly vibrant section of late and I think thanks should go to Trollheart for creating a bit more interest in that area. The writing is generally more focussed so still some good stuff to be had. Lounge and shout box play their roles too as far as getting to know people and building a community.

I really don't know what has to be done to clean up the forum. It has devolved into an angry, tribal society where if you're not part of their little tribe then you won't be accepted. As the majority of those before me have stated, the politics section is what really fans the flames. I'm not so sure that more policing will fix the problem, but it's worth a shot. I don't want to turn MB into a police state where open discussion is impossible, but at this point, I'm willing to try anything. Urban, I'm for deleting posts that criticize others during the Lounge discussions. Do what you need to do.

I'm waiting for tore to state whether he wants to be moderator #1 again. If he's willing to start another site.... Probably nobody could tell me he would make Music Banter worse, even with that weird "too idealistic" claim that I've seen applied to someone else.

Voting on mods - allow a window for nominations/demotions at the beginning of each month and if, for example, 5 people agree about someone, start a poll that runs for at least a week and requires enough votes that cliques couldn't do much damage. The thing is, The current system is the ultimate clique, friends choosing friends to work with them. And I'm not going to make (good) threads until that changes.

Deletion drama? Be very specific in posted guidelines about what will get posts deleted (for example, name-calling). But understand that if mods are actively part of that drama, deletions will be seen as unfair (mods above the law) and if moderators refrain from fighting, they'll be 'punished' less with complaints about deletions.

Lastly, I too have witnessed problems in forums that have a Politics section. I don't pay much attention to The Lounge (because I'm here for music), but if drama is starting there, then limit posting privileges in it (for example, not allowing new members to make threads there) and urge everyone to self-limit their time in that section.

Yeah but you aren't having an open discussion when you are attacking someone or their beliefs. You should be talking about the topic at hand and yes I know I'm guilty of doing exactly what I'm talking about but I will refrain from doing so in the future.

I agree with Lisnaholic when he said to encourage more music posts.
That's the key here.
Not censoring everyone.

And they may acually begin with being more open-minded. Allowing the musical opinions of others, allowing arguments but not being offensive, and more.

I really think this can work.

I think every week or every first week of the month or something, each mod (at least) should make a thread that starts a discussion about MUSIC.
And that contributing members should try this as well. And try to post more in the music threads and such.
People respect and love the mods, and you guys would probably get a lot of activity in your threads on music.

I think DJ's last post is probably one of the most honest and actually bravest in this thread, and I think we should all --- me included goes without saying --- undertake to follow his example. We've all --- all --- been guilty of contributing to or in some cases starting, maybe maintaining the fires and I think now is a good time for us all to throw down the gasoline cans and try to join the fire brigade. If we all recognise that, rather than blame others --- or "everyone but me" --- on these incidents, and accept that we all have had a role to play in every situation --- unless we actually weren't involved in the discussion at all --- this could have been something as simple or esoteric as calming someone down rather than bait them, be the voice of reason --- (yes there are a lot of triple hyphens in this sentence, aren't there?) we can all do our bit to help, then perhaps, just perhaps, we can turn this thing around.

Remember, although there's no smoke without fire, fire can't exist in a vacuum and if we provide that vacuum by refusing to be drawn into petty arguments --- a drama vacuum, if you like (yeah I'm aware I just used another triple hyphen!) then maybe the drama, like a fire without oxygen, might just gutter and go out.

In most cases the people who you think would be good mods are not mods for the simple reason they don't want to be.
And I don't choose friends when moderating either, in most cases I end up choosing the same people that most of the forum would want there. There's been several times I've put my own feelings about someone aside to moderate with them because I think they deserve the chance.

Yes you're totally right about this.

I am definitely down for no more drama.

Trollheart I'm impressed that you have opened up like this because I am also one who's been involved with drama in the past. I think if all parties got together and discussed the situation causing the deep rooted conflict then maybe things could really change.

If current events/politics is really a major problem can it be moderated similarly to the journals with each post needing approval? It would somewhat slow the pace of debate though. Maybe take a poll? I know it makes more work for mods but maybe it would be easier than trying to make sense of the wreck after the fact.

I'm not sure it would stop all the tension just moderating that sub forum though. If people want to fight they seem to be able to take offense at anything.

For what my two cents is worth, I don't get why this thread it being made right now. It could have been made for the last 5 years.

But it has been suggested, so lets just say this. I think I am 50/50 on posting music/politics, and I'm fine with you deleting the current events section. I don't think its intelligent, but I'm fine with it.

As a person who enjoys the political discussions here, I don't know if its fair to punish the civilized folks for wanting to further engage the community beyond the express interest of music. Having said that, most people posting in the political forum aren't. Their misinformed, uncivilized, fringe lunatics who "know" things because their feelings told them it was so. And to me, that isn't politics. But there have been enough times where we had a discussion about things that didn't require research. Things that were decidedly political that it was just nice hearing the other side about.

Lately, I've felt as if its been the majority of posts around here. Sometimes I hit "New Posts" and see a litany of Current Event threads, and they all seem like softball threads designed for ****storms:

1. Is rape bad?

2. What are your thoughts on murder?

3. Aren't taxes terrible?

The ACA thread DJ posted was actually a pretty decent discussion over all. I know that I asked for it to be locked, but it improved drastically from there and I think it got the message across. The real problem there was Arya and HHBH being obnoxious. Thats not a political problem, its a user problem.

As for deleting the forum, as I said, I think it would be fine. I'd miss it, but not enough to stop coming to MB. Just the same, I think things are overmodded here. Threads locked way too early for my taste in general...now we're talking about removing an entire forum?

With all due respect, you take the phrase "Preemptive strike" to heart. I would remind everyone here that its August - we've never had a fruitful summer season on MB in all the years I've been here, and I'm going to hit 9 years this month. People go through phases of interest. And we've also had a retention issue. Building up the community is hard. People have a million choices on-line and engaging discussion is pretty tough to come by period. New members often aren't coherent or have niche interests that we can't relate to.

What happened to that "Prince of Punk" kid? This: http://www.musicbanter.com/punk/7081...ince-punk.html

That guy didn't leave because of political threads, I assure you.

I can empathize with there not being enough music discussion, but I've seen a few threads where someone posted a Youtube video (one of the easiest ways to hear new music - just click play) and it went ignored for pages, or the discussion reverted to some discussion from before the video.

You can only talk about the base discussion so often. When someone posts a new or novel topic, it should be fostered by members who care, because the half-hearted swoop in and take the easy topic (like who's sleeping with who in the band, or when they sold out.)

There, now I can't say I didn't speak up.

Big3 I'm not sure that you mean Arya, she's Aww Sugar and I haven't seen her being obnoxious.

I think that would slow things right down and I would like to think that it wouldn't need to come to that.

Everybody seems to be in agreement that something needs to be done I think this one needs to be more on the members and by that I mean everybody including mods.

It's easy to say the mods handled this wrong, or the mods handled that wrong. How about not making things an issue in the first place so we don't have to sort things out for people. We don't want to make loads of rules that we have to go around enforcing, we want people to act like adults & moderate themselves for the most part.

I'd much rather be doing something constructive like writing in my journal or talking about music I'm listening to or making Trollheart listen to albums he'll hate than discussing someone's 10th ban in the mod forum because they STILL won't accept they're being caustic towards others.

I made this suggestion in the Mod forum but I think it's worth bringing up here given how many people are interested in doing something about the state of the Lounge.

What if it was so lounge posts didn't show up when you clicked New Posts. The people who enjoy the lounge still get to post there and all the threads remain the same, but instead they don't overshadow posts made in the music forums.

I love this idea.

I don't really see a problem with the number of lounge posts drowning out the music ones. I do see a problem with legitimate threads being bumped by spammers peppering necro threads with throw away comments. Do new posters still have their first posts moderated?

In any case these are pretty easily recognised and usually deleted pretty promptly so I don't know that it's a major concern. More of a frequent annoyance.

People are attacking the wrong situations and the wrong people. I did not argue, create drama, or waste a post. I added my approval in what I thought would be the least dramatic way possible. To avoid arguing with HHBH, I didn't even read his posts.

Thank you!

THIS SOUNDS PERFECT! It's not censoring, but it's placing the importance on the right threads!!!