Ace

I didn't say a specific metaphor....
And even so, they have used that specific metaphor. You want to nitpick and say using Eden doesn't make em' original, that's fine. Doesn't make Dylan original either, and that's all good. If using a monkey metaphor makes em' cliche in your eyes, that's your opinion.
To tell you the truth, I don't see dozens of songs comparing men to monkeys, though I know of plenty of authors who do so.
Once again, everyone has their opinion, and I hope this little discussion is over with and done.

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Originally Posted by RezZ I think I know much better than you ever will how Mettalica is. I used to play for 2 years in a Mettalica cover band.

sleepy jack

I was talking about a specific metaphor this entire time and frankly I'd like to see proof for this. Because I really don't believe a bunch of very orderly people were singing a song about war using Eden as a metaphor with no god metaphors whatsoever.

Dylan's the first I've seen using it in that way, you're offering nothing actually substantial. Normally I'd take you at your word but I'm extremely skeptical.

If authors use it plenty of times then guess what? That makes it a commonly used image, thus cliche. The most recent example I can think of is Rilo Kiley's It's a Hit.

We're talking about objective matters right now, opinions don't mean a thing.

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Ace

Considering as how I work as the sound technician for a local church, I happen to know it's used frequently as a metaphor for man's warlike nature. If you want some proof, I'll give you some directions and you can join their Sunday School. Or you could spend 12-13 years in classes devoted to it, then come back and tell me you've found no proof that no one ever used it as a metaphor. Seriously, quit the nitpicking and drop the subject. Emo is a commonly used theme in songs, so I suppose the entire emo genre is cliche. Let's drop it, eh?

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Originally Posted by RezZ I think I know much better than you ever will how Mettalica is. I used to play for 2 years in a Mettalica cover band.

sleepy jack

Emo is a genre of music, it can't be cliche or a theme in music...

Since you're so learned in this it really shouldn't be hard for you to google one of these many songs should it?

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Ace

It's called "End of Eden" and non published, but like I said, you can always come down here and talk to the guy who wrote it. Our band leader writes alot of the music for the church itself, and most of the lyrics. He has written a song and sermon on Eden, and how man's warlike nature has continued to increase ever since. How such trivial arguments end up starting full fledged wars. Let's see...common themes to emo music. Suicide. I could probably find a bunch of bands in the emo genre who write about suicide, and call their songs cliche. You'd probably jump all over my ass in defense, or whoever would happen to like the band in question.
Now seriously. Are you ****ing done yet? =)) Worse than arguing with a decrepid old man. I can't keep this up all night, Ethan.
You can't allllways be right or have the final say, so give it up for both of us.

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Originally Posted by RezZ I think I know much better than you ever will how Mettalica is. I used to play for 2 years in a Mettalica cover band.

sleepy jack

Um, you realize Bob Dylan wrote Gates of Eden in the 60s right? So unless this guy is really really old, like in his late 60s or 70s he didn't write before Dylan did.

I doubt you could even name any emo bands.

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Ace

Bright Eyes isn't emo?
Hawthorne Heights?
Panic! At The Disco (in my eyes, anyway)
And the guy is in his 50's, and he hasn't listened to Dylan a day in his life =))
I seriously doubt he has, anyway, and he damn sure wouldn't copy from him.
Even so, that is still saying Dylan is the first person to EVER write a song using Eden as a metaphor. I know for a fact there were plenty written thousands of years ago, so start watching the History channel, or go enroll in some kind of Ancient Arts class or something. I can't sit here and cite public articles and show you, and you can't prove to me Dylan was the first man on earth to do it. You're basically telling me that Bob Dylan was the first person to ever write a song using Eden as a metaphor at the moment, and you and I both know that's not true. I hope you do, anyway.
Are you done with this discussion now?
And if not, for ****s sake why the hell not?

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Originally Posted by RezZ I think I know much better than you ever will how Mettalica is. I used to play for 2 years in a Mettalica cover band.

Ace

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Originally Posted by RezZ I think I know much better than you ever will how Mettalica is. I used to play for 2 years in a Mettalica cover band.

sleepy jack

None of those bands are even close to emo.

So Dylan wrote it before him, your one actual thing of proof doesn't prove a thing.

See I really don't believe you, BECAUSE you've yet to state anything substantial and you keep going off on things that aren't relevant to the discussion showing you don't have a strong argument. Even if Bob Dylan isn't the first to use it, that still proves Maynard isn't the first because Bob Dylan did it and apparently so did other plenty of people thousands of years ago.

The song idea isn't original and it's pretty funny seeing as you stated you'd never heard anyone use eden as a metaphor before and now you're going on about all the different people who have used it as a metaphor. You've proven yourself wrong, you've proven Maynard's song isn't original yourself and I've already proven it's cliche. I don't know about you but I don't consider unoriginal and cliche to equal good lyrics.

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Ace

I have never heard a band use it as a metaphor until Tool. I never once said in any post that Tool was original for using Eden in the song. I never said they were the FIRST to do it. I said, "I HAVE YET TO HEAR A BAND USE EDEN." Not once did I claim them the original users of Eden, and I even said that ages ago. I said it wasn't cliche. You're the one that nitpicked like a child, and changed the subject and said, "well that doesn't make em original!" Well, newsflash for you kid, it doesn't make Dylan original either, because it was done plenty of damn times before him. So now that you've danced around providing me proof that Dylan is absolutely the first person to do it, will you quit proving yourself to be like a damn 2 year old, and drop this ****ing subject? It's like you would argue with a damn brick wall if you could. Do you have nothing better to do then sit on musicbanter all day long, and try your best to find random **** to have the last say in every subject? Drop it while you can bungalowbill. I'm done.

Edit: And so I don't get some smartass reply about it, "End of Eden" was written early July of 2007.
Therefore Tool was the first band I've ever heard to use it as a metaphor.
I haven't listened to much of Dylan, and don't intend to any time soon.
Alllllll off topic. The song, Right In Two, is not cliche. I don't see an assload of music about Eden floating around on the internet or radio, anywhere. So good arguing to you Ethan, but I've made my points. If you want to argue with yourself though, keep postin'.

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Originally Posted by RezZ I think I know much better than you ever will how Mettalica is. I used to play for 2 years in a Mettalica cover band.