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Originally Posted by mojopinuk
You see, without being able to communicate with another species, how could you possibly comprehend the way they live, think, or communicate with one another? How could you possibly know that we are the "master species", when you clearly know so little about others? We have the ability to advance our own species but we largely choose to dictate what animals mean to us. They mean livestock and mainly food. We choose to take what we want or need from them to further our own lives and our own species yet by doing so, arguably hinder the advancement of their own. But how can you be so sure that thats what these animals were MADE for, rather than what we have decided they are to be used for.
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Well put, mojo. I strongly dislike the idea that animals were "made for us."
I sometimes hear people say how much they appreciate that some animal sacrificed its life for humans to eat. Yet the animal didn't "give" or "sacrifice" its life for people to eat it. The humans TOOK the animal's life, and just want to make themselves feel justified in doing so.
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Originally Posted by anticipation
the modern world runs on the exploitation, suffering, and degradation of human beings and animals alike, so when someone thinks they're making even the slightest difference by not eating meat they're being naive and a bit ignorant if you ask me.
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I disagree with your belief that being vegetarian doesn't make the "slightest difference." The whole field of economics is based on the knowledge that each person contributes demand, affecting the market.
The effect may be slight when I don't eat meat, but there is an effect. You can see this cumulative effect of people eating vegetarian foods when you go to restaurants. Many offer vegetarian options now to cater to people avoiding animal products. Also, the effect of consumers refusing to buy products produced in sweat shops and by child labor makes a difference, too.
It sounds as if you feel you can have no impact at all on the world, anticipation. Is this a way for you to rationalize doing whatever you want without considering the consequences?
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Originally Posted by Freebase Dali
I think that a person's opinion about their place in the scheme of the environment and other animals is pretty integral to the idea of veganism. I'm a meat eater, and even I know that.
Questioning why often raises more questions that you should be willing to confront.
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It is very integral for me, that's for sure.
One question I think about as a vegan is this: let's say an animal, a calf, is going to be killed by a lion--does it make any difference to the calf if its life is ended by the lion or by a human? Probably not. So then couldn't this be used to justify humans killing cows?
I'd answer no, it doesn't justify humans killing cows, because (1) humans can choose not to kill them, and (2) humans don't need to kill animals to survive and be healthy (except in extreme environments). I'm not saying that non-human animals can't make choices. They can. But carnivores can't choose to not eat meat if they hope to survive.
A related thought experiment is this one. Let's say a human is near death. Does it really make much difference to the human if she dies naturally on that day, or if I murder her humanely and eat her? It makes a difference to me because I feel it is wrong for me to make this choice for her life, ending it against her will.
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Originally Posted by skaltezon
I'm with you here, except ideally I'd find a way to exist without killing animals if I could do so healthfully. I like most animals.
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You could be vegan, skaltezon. I'm still alive!
It is very possible to be vegan and healthy. I was the first vegan I knew personally, so I learned everything from books. Now the internet is a great resource for information about how to be a healthy vegan and how to avoid products made from animals.
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Originally Posted by skaltezon
You're really attached to that steak, at least rhetorically. What if your friend is a cow?
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Your question reminds me of the popular children's movie "Madagascar," which has as its main theme the topic of carnivory vs. vegetarianism and friendship.
In the movie, a zoo lion and zebra are best friends, but when they get stuck on an island the lion starts to revert to his inborn carnivorous desires as he gets hungrier and hungrier. He starts to see all the other animals as steaks and wakes up at night horrified to find himself licking his zebra friend. It's a funny movie...and thought-provoking!
The movie has some great ironic shots of the brutality of nature, such as when the zoo animals try to save a chick from a hawk by picking up the chick and placing it in a pond...only to have the chick swallowed up by a giant crocodile rising up from underneath it, like the shark does in the movie Jaws.
I feel the question people face, if they wish to, is whether they want to contribute to the brutality which is part of nature, or whether they want to try to reduce it by avoiding being brutal themselves. I see vegetarianism as one easy and healthy way to reduce the brutality humans cause in the world. It isn't the only way, but it is one good way.
