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Originally Posted by mr dave
that's kind of my point though, belief and fact are not one and the same, most importantly - they don't need to be.
seems to me the entire fundamental of an actual belief is that it doesn't need to be substantiated by a fact. to force a belief through logical functions made to establish facts seems inherently counter productive. i do definitely agree that one should continue questioning their beliefs to make sure they accurately reflect the person they've grown to be at this point in the game though.
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You're right that beliefs and facts are not the same, but beliefs that aren't substantiated by facts or reason are often going to be false beliefs, are they not? I can say "I believe it is cold outside" in July when the sun is shining, and say the same thing in January as it snows... clearly the belief is more likely true in January as it snows, so long as you're in the northern hemisphere of course. Similarly, you might believe the sun orbits the earth - but upon closer inspection of the facts, might alter that to believe the earth in fact orbits the sun.
It's perfectly fine for one person to believe whatever they want, regardless of whether it's even remotely based on reason - if you wanna believe the moon is made of cheese, fair enough. But when a set of beliefs have a major impact in the world we live in, then surely it is important to use logic and reason to try and find out whether or not the beliefs have value, and should hold sway in our world. Look at slavery - it was acceptable to believe that some groups of people could be kept as slaves until not long ago, and now that's regarded as immoral.
When these false or immoral beliefs manifest themselves as they have done, for example, on 9/11 (I say false beliefs, I am of course assuming that these men do not get 72 virgins in "paradise" after killing innocent people), then I think you could argue that it is anything but counter productive to use logic and reason when determining and analysing your own beliefs, and indeed the beliefs of particular groups of people in our societies.
I get what you're saying about coercion, but when so many people are evidently being manipulated in the name of religion, I think you need to start asking questions about the nature of what it really is they believe in, regardless of the fact that there are many people who may practice the same religion and are perfectly peaceful and decent human beings.